Alkanet root , how to mix with oil finish.

[smallpatch]

I normally use Chambers oil. Will that take alkanet root?
If so, how do you incorporate it into the oil?

[smart dog]

Hi Dane,
I use it 2 ways.  I buy powdered alkanet root and mix 1/2 cup in 12 oz of mineral spirits.  I let that sit for a couple weeks and then decant the liquid using a coffee filter.  I put that on as a stain prior to my finish.  The second way is to make the same mix but substitute your finish for the mineral spirits.  Do the same thing, soak the powder for a few weeks and then decant.  You may find cheese cloth works better with finish than the coffee filter.  The powder does not dissolve so you have to remove it by filtering.

dave

[smylee grouch]

Does this give the wood a reddish hew? Where do you buy the root?

[FDR]

You might find this interesting.

http://www.sbmcwilliams.com/

Fred

[Eric Kettenburg]

You can also just take a big hunk of it and if you are boiling your own oil, just drop it into the oil pot.  Combined with various lead oxides or lead used as a dryer, it will add quite an orangish-red tone to the oil.  Not like 'violin varnish' red but definitely a red tint that will work well with various stains used underneath.

I'm still not convinced of the lightfastness of it, however, but here in the northeast, I don't think the 4 sunny days/year will be an issue.

[Dphariss]

Bill Knight told me that they used it to dye cotton cloth gray by dying and IIRC exposing to sunlight. Would have to find the letter. I have a couple of reams of stuff from Bill over the past 40 odd years and its not worth digging through.

Lead compounds, acetate or Carbonate will give a reportedly give a red tint to the oil. If you are heat modifying Linseed oil I recommend some Calcium Carbonate added to kill the organic acids. This helps with the drying.

[smallpatch]

Thanks all!
I’ve got some on the way. I like the stain idea better I think. That way, nothing messes with the drying time of the oil finish.

[Pukka Bundook]

Chunks of alkanet root can be just dropped in your linseed oil and left a few months, to turn it a good dark red, then fish the chunks out.

[rtadams]

1-15-24

Smart Dog,

Where do you purchase the Alkanet root powder from? I plan to try this as a stain on American Black Walnut to obtain a reddish color as you do on your walnut stocks.

Best Regards,

Robert

[bobw]

rtadams….ebay is the easiest.

[flatsguide]

Robert, I’d be interested to see how your alkenet dye or stain works out on black walnut,I’m stocking a rifle now in black walnut. I’ve used alkenet in the past on lighter colored English walnut and their varieties and the color shift is very subtle.
CheersRichard

[bobw]

Richard, all my single shots have black walnut and finishing started with either BLO and alkanet or turpentine and alkanet.   You can see those over on that forum. I don’t see it adding much red, I’d like to see more, but it definitely highlights the darker graining.  With BLO the wood can get quite dark at first but seams to come out of it as the finishing and sanding progresses.  I top coat with Chambers finish.
Bob

[flatsguide]

Thanks Robert. It is a very subtle change I find. I use Chambers oil too for the finish.
Cheers Richard

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
Just wanted to post an update.  I am currently finishing a Brown Bess using aniline dyes and alkanet root.  Previously, I wrote about infusing mineral spirits with the stain from the powdered root.  My coloring was very nice but not terribly rich using that mix.  I always supplemented the alkanet root stain with other stains.  However, this week I made stain using the powder mixed in turpentine.  The difference is dramatic.  The stain is much more intense.  Perhaps there is a connection in that both alkanet root and turpentine are plant products, whereas mineral spirits are derived from petroleum.  Anyway, I am using turpentine from now on.  I will post the Bess finishing soon.  My goal is to make black walnut look like English walnut so the stock is first painted with pure yellow aniline dye and then the alkanet root.  That warms up the color of black walnut tremendously.

dave 

[TDM]

Well I certainly learned something. I have a jar of Alkanet root and have tried it in the past but never let it sit, and was never pleased with the results. Think I’ll mix some up with gum turpentine and let it sit on the shelf a month or so.

[bobw]

Dave, smart dog,  This is a black walnut stock I have just finished.  I have cropped out the gun because it’s not a muzzleloader, so to hopefully not offend anyone.

This has two applications of yellow dye, 3 applications of alkanet in turpentine, then 1 application of alkanet in BLO, then spot coloring with Laurel Mountain walnut dye to fill in light area to the same tones as the reast of the wood.  Then sanded in to fill with final coats of Chambers.  While I’m finally getting the reds I want, some wood takes the alkanet really well and at first is vibrant with reds and black.  But, by the time the fill and finishing process is done the reds are very muted.  I would like your thoughts and advice on improving and if there is anyway to hold those reds better.
Bob

[P.W.Berkuta]

Very IMPRESSIVE piece of walnut

[smart dog]

Hi Bob,
What a wonderful stock and staining job!!!  I don't know any trick to bring out more red other than tint the Chambers oil red as well.  You basically duplicated how I treat black walnut to turn it into English walnut. My goal is usually not to make the stock redder but a reddish-orange color.  Here is an unfinished example.  This Bess stock was first dyed black during the whiskering process.  That reveals scratches and rough spots really well.  That is scraped and sanded off but some black pigment remains in the grain and creates a shadow effect with other stains.  Then I use a coat of pure yellow followed by a coat of alkanet root (this time in turpentine).  The result is pretty dramatic when finish is applied.  On this gun, I also tinted the finish with alkanet root, a little yellow dye, and a few drops of LMF walnut stain. 

 









As I add more coats, the reddish hue will show more intensely.  My finish is Sutherland-Welles tung oil wiping varnish, which mixes polymerized tung oil with a polyurethane varnish.  In appearance, it matches the original finish on these muskets very well.  Eventually the stock will have a more glossy sheen and the red-orange color will shine through.  Here are other examples.
 


















dave

[rtadams]

1-17-24

bobw & smart dog,

When I survey the numerous choices for Alkanet root as suggested to look on ebay, which one did you use for your stain? ---- Alkanet root powder Batschia Canescens ?

Also: What brand of black dye and concentration etc.?

Best Regards,

Robert

[bobw]

I have used both the shredded stuff and ground powder.  Either will work, but the powder will color the turpentine or oil faster.  The color will appear quickly but the longer it’s mixed the better it becomes.  I leave the alkanet in the turpentine or oil for several months even though I may be using it. I usually shake it every couple days as I walk past it.

Dave, I think I might like the black dye process!  When do you apply it, immediately after final sanding and scraping or, after you have raised the grain a time or two?  My first thought was how much cleanup does it take to remove it from all but the dark grain, I alway think of a dye as going deep into the wood. 

Your orange/red comment hit home for me.  That orange is what I will see in some wood, while it’s not what I’m looking, for it is attractive.  This first stock is a piece of wood that did end up more orange than red, although it’s not as orange as this picture depicts.  It did NOT get the yellow dye and only got the turpentine alkanet mix, NOT the oil mix. 

I think by not using the oil mix was at least part of the reason for this color, the oil has a tendency to darken and give the finished product a much richer look. 

The second stock did not get the yellow, nor the turpentine mix.  Only the oil/alkanet mix, then finished with Chambers oil as most of my stocks get.  I have not tried mixing the alkanet in the Chamber finish yet but have been contemplating it. 

I should add that these are black walnut.

Again, I apologize to the members, these are not a muzzleloaders.

Thanks
Bob

[Not English]

Bobw I sure don't need any apologies. I'll look at modern stuff all day long if I can learn to get those kind of results.

[bobw]

Not English, Thanks.  Although they might be called modern by those here, they would not by many others.  The bottom gun is a scratch built replica of a transitional gun originally made in the late 1850’s.  The original was a breech loading percussion gun.
Bob

[Daryl]

Beautiful finishes, Bob. Well done.

[flintlock hunter]

Could someone please tell me where to buy pure yellow aniline die? I have everything else, pure gum turpentine, alkanet root and pure linseed oil. I just can't find the yellow die. I'm making a Jaeger from fancy black walnut and would like to make it look like English walnut

[Stoner creek]

Amazon. You can get it from woodcraft too. Transtint.