Opinions of this Tennessee rifle

[Logang]

This rifle has come down through the generations of my great grandmothers family. It is in pretty rough condition and i suspect that the main spring or tumbler is broken, the hammer just flops around. I would like to disassemble and repair just enough to possibly fire it, if the bore checks out ok. The barrel is held to the stock with nails, I wouldn't think that the builder did that but I have seen pictures of other rifles that also look to have nails along the stock. There are no makers marks or stamps anywhere that I have found, only some very faded scroll work on the lock plate and hammer. What do you guys think about it?

[Logang]

Forgot the measurements, overall length is 59 inches and the barrel is 44 inches. Sorry about the filthy couch as well, I have a four year old son running around.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... nice looking upper East Tennessee style, from what the photos show.... needs a good cleaning, but don't overdo it....!!! ... post some good photos of the cheek-rest, barrel tang. rear and front sights, lock bolt plate or washer, buttplate, toeplate, Trigger-guard, nosecap, barrel muzzle end, and rammer entry pipe area...these will give a better idea as to where and possibly who might have made it....thanx for posting here and regards,.... Cades Cove Fiddler... 

[taterbug]

Great find, and thanks for sharing it here.  And welcome to the forum!!

looks like a great candidate for some conservation/restoration.  Sure, there is some damage, but looks mostly complete, even if not completely original.  Its got some classic details of East Tennessee rifles.  Everyone here is going to beg for more pics, and more detailed pics. 

Most builders used pins to hold the forestock to the barrel.  Basically, they looked like nails with the points and heads cut off.  I can see how someone would be tempted to use actual nails if the original pins were lost, or became loose from rough service or improper disassembly. 

[Logang]

It doesn’t really have a distinguished cheek rest.

[Logang]

Maybe these will be of some help.  What is the best procedure for cleaning it up? I know it is loaded so that will be taken care of first. What are some cleaners that are ok to use on the wood and metal that will not cause further harm?

[Bob Roller]

After its unloaded I would do minimum cleaning.This is a fine example of a long rifle made with few tools,maybe just a rasp and a chisel.
The was a man near here in Kenova West Virginia that actually made a rifle similar to this with a big Case 2 blade pocket knife..His name was Glen Napier,WW2 veteran in the Pacific and a fine craftsman.His parts came from a wrecked and rotted antique in worse condition than this one.Glen was 96 when he passed away and made a business of restoring antique guns for Herman Dean who had many of them and donated some of his collection to the Huntington Museum of Art.There are people on this forum that can tell you exactly how to clean this rifle.I am sure it can be cosmetically restored but may not be safe to shoot.
Bob Roller

[Jacob_S_P]

Heck a nice piece of what appears to be walnut.

[JTR]

I don't think you'd really want to do too much at this point. A big part of the beauty of this rifle is its originality.
What I would do would be to stop the active rust, and put a bit of finish type oil on the wood.
For the rust, I would first try to remove the iron parts; The lock, trigger guard, trigger plate, butt plate, barrel. Put some WD 40 or something similar to help the screws to turn. Put it under the screw heads and on the thread ends, like on the lock plate. And no, a small bit of WD 40 won't hurt the wood, and it will help to be able to turn the screw without messing up the slot. Use a firearms type screw driver with parallel blade sides and not a common tapered screw driver. After the Wd 40 has soaked for say half a day, pick the best correct size screw driver bit, support the rifle well, put the bit in the screw slot and rap it with a hammer a few times. Then try to unscrew the screw. If no, give it a bit more WD 40 and a couple more hours. If it just doesn't want to come loose, get a helper to hold the rifle solidly. Take the gun smith screw driver bit, and clamp it in a pair of vice grips, with the end of the bit standing a bit proud of the vice grip jaws. Put the driver end in the screw slot, and tap the end of the driver bit with a hammer while you try to turn the screw out. This usually works, not always, but usually. If the dang screw won't come out, just leave it. You can still do a half decent clean up job with the parts in place. If you do get the screws out, set them in place so you'll know exactly which screw came out of what hole!
For the active rust, some fairly fine steel wool and some oil will do the job. It's messy. If you have the part off, cover it with oil and rub it with the steel wool. You're not trying to remove the solid rust, just the loose stuff, and just as much let the oil soak into the rust to slow down/stop the rusting. This is something you can do several times over a week or so. On the interior of the lock and triggers you can be a lot more vigorous and remove the rust that building up in there, so you'll have a chance of getting the lock and triggers to operate correctly again.

For the wood, some of this stuff,  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1006518673?pid=879307  will help a lot. It just takes a drop or two, rubbed into the wood to get a better look. If you put too much, it'll tend to get shinny as it dries. If so, just buff it with a brush and take off the shine. It takes a while to dry, so go slow and take your time.

Or if you don't want to go to all the work, send it to me and I'll do it for you! 

John
   

[Logang]

Thank you all for the insight and advice. I got the rifle unloaded and started putting some kroil on the bolts in the lock plate. I will reapply a few time for a day or so then give them a try. I would really like to get the stock off to clean up the under side of the barrel and put some glue in a couple cracks in the stock.  Would my best route here be to cut the nails to remove them then get new pins to reassemble?  Also, what is the best way to remove the rusted nipple? Easy-out?

[AZshot]

That is a nice old Mountain long rifle.  I'm not an expert on what to do about the nails, but since the original gunsmith didn't use them, it's probably alright to get them out any way you can because you'll throw them away.  Then the key (no pun) is to replace them with something that fits but also looks old, some rust, etc. 

When rubbing the iron with oil try not to get any white metal showing.  You just want it to look "worn and cared for" not "put in the attic for 80 year and it got wet a lot."  Just oil and a little rubbing with a cloth or maybe something more abrasive if you are very careful.  The parts that may be rust red need more work than the black - which is already stable and fine.  Don't buff down too much.

On the wood, the first thing I'd do is wipe it with Dawn dish soap and water, on a rag.  Most organic dirt will come off that way. Rinse and dry it when it seems clean enough. Then when dry use some mineral spirits, wiping the stock quickly.  You don't need it to soak in our anything, you just want to get any remaining crud without lightening the wood color.  It probably has some built up oil on the stock, that's pretty much the "finish" you don't want to remove too much.  When done, use some linseed oil on the wood, 2-3 times, letting it soak in for a few hours each time.  Done!

[taterbug]

would be interesting to see each part as you take it off.  And then again after you get it cleaned up a bit.  It might help some of the smarter folks on here identify where the individual parts may have originated. 

Also, in your cleaning efforts, keep an eye on the top flat of the barrel.  Original makers would often sign (engrave) or stamp the barrels behind the rear sight.  With the condition of this one tho', it may never show up again if it ever was there. 

Its still a great old rifle, and glad you're sharing it here.  Always fun to watch as part of a guns history gets uncovered, and how the parts may have been made. 

[Logang]

[Logang]

I am beginning to think she may never fire again. The underside of the barrel is in better shape than I thought it would be, it is missing one tang that the pins go through at the muzzle end. The lock has no broken pieces like I thought, the main spring was just loose from sear. I guess it is missing enough of the wood around it that there is nothing to hold it against the lock plate. The stock seams to me to be the worse off, there has been pieces added along the barrel over the years and where it is carved out for the lock is missing a lot of wood, and what is there does not look very structural. I am going to clean it up some and find a way to secure the main spring so the hammer is not flopping around. I had hope to be able to fire her off some when complete but i am afraid she just not capable any longer.

[mountainman70]

It is No sin to just enjoy it for what she is, and learn how to build one similar, or a Kibler SMR, so you can enjoy what the rest of us do here.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Were she mine, I would just do what needed to stabilize and protect the wood/metal.
You are now her curator, behave accordingly.
Again, Thanks for sharing.
Best regards, Dave F

[Logang]

I did find a stamp on the back of the lock plate,  maybe the number 11?

[JTR]

Logang,
Sorry I didn't notice you latest pic, and didn't comment on it. Maybe just a casting number?

As for your rifle;
At first glance it looks pretty bad, but, actually, it's not really all that bad. Most of what you're seeing is rust and crud. The red rust can be done away with and most of the crud can be transformed into a pretty good antique look. I don't disagree with AZshot about washing the stock with Dawn soap in some cases, but all that crud is the original finish, and here I would rather use most of it to create a nice looking 'as used' finish.

As for the lock, from what I can see in the picture, is all there. As was common in the time, it might be an inexpensive lock with no half cock position. With a better lock, when you would remove it, you'd pull the hammer back to half cock, then remove the lock. Without a half cock position, it's the nipple that stops the downward progression of the hammer, so when you remove the lock it like you have, the hammer just travels further down until everything feels like it come loose. Take a close look at your lock, as there might be a half cock notch on the tumbler. It might be full of rust, or broken off, or the sear might be bashed up and not catching.

The inlet for your lock is about normal. The wood broken out on the front top area is common, the overall inlet is pretty normal for the time, and the wood in the interior of the lock mortice was never used to position or stop the travel of the main spring.

As for shooting the gun, the primary and most important factors are the interior condition of the barrel, the threads in the breech and the threads for the percussion drum into the barrel. I'm not going to take a guess at that from the pictures.

You actually have a nice rifle here and if you are not fully confident you can do any work and have it turn out well, I'd suggest you do nothing, other than trying to stop the active rust.

As an idea of what can be done with time and experience, click on the link and take a look.  This rifle, as found, is the 2nd one down in the pictures from Sequatchie Rifle.
  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=79774.0       

   




 

[Logang]

 My lock bolt shows no signs of being threaded, but it is larger on the end and tapers down coming in the first 3/16 of the bolt. I assumed it would be threaded but were some of theses smashed like a rivet? Doesn’t seem likely since they have to come apart to work on.

[JTR]

Probably just smashed at some point, just to make it hold on. Normally threaded just like any screw.

[Logang]

The lock does only have one notch for hammer position.

[Logang]

I cleaned everything the first go around with oil and a brass brush, but it was not very effective. Went over it again with hot soapy water and fine steel wool, it worked better, even took off more than intended in a spot or two. I washed the stock with hot soapy water an cloth rags, went over it twice, then put a couple coats of linseed oil. I don’t know if it helped much or not but I don’t want to remove any of the history if I’m not going to be able to shoot it anyways. The triggers and the hammer both have enough slop  in them that they won’t stay locked without holding them. I didn’t want to try to knock any pins out to disassemble and file on them to make them hold so it is still not going to be functional anyways.

[Logang]

[AZshot]

I think it looks much nicer, the wood was too dry before.

[Bob Roller]

Like the horse in John Cremony's ride recorded in "Great American Guns and Frontier Fighters"Rode hard but survived.This old rifle should be considered as a survivor and probably a a provider of meat and safety in more than one situation.Reasswble it and be glad you have it as a relic of a long ago time.
Bob Roller

[Logang]

The rifle is reassembled and will continue to be past down as a family heirloom, and be appreciated for what it is.  After fooling with this one the last few days and reading through these forums I am now wanting a functional Tennessee rifle to shoot and hunt with.  When does this big show in Knoxville that I keep hearing about take place? I would like to find an original in good enough shape to shoot, not wanting one of the modern kit guns. Anyone have any leads for guns in middle Tennessee?     Thanks again for all the helpful tips and insight on this rifle.