Need help with the lefthanded breech plug for the Alex Henry/Staton/Rolller lock

[Rolf]

I’ve started carving out a left-hand breech plug to use with the locks I’ve finished. The plug is based on pictures form TOTW catalogs of English square 1” Breech & Tang    #Plug-ENG-16-3.
Something does not look right. Here are pictures of my breech so far.


Does anyone have a #Plug-Eng-16-3 plug, and if so, could they help with some measurements?

1.What’s the length of the bolster (red line)? Mine is 0.866” (22mm).


2.What’s the width of the plug including the bolster (blue line)? Mine is 1.368” (34,75mm).


3.What’s the diameter of the nipple face (green line)? Mine is 0.473” (12mm).


4. Imagine the hole for the nipple (0.25”) is drilled. What is the distance between the side of the plug to the edge of the nipple hole (yellow line)?


5. What’s the shortest distance from the rear edge of the bolster to the nipple face (orange line)?
Mine is 0.067(1,7mm).


Best regards
Rolf

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have a suggestion - how about buying the right hand one from TOTW and use it as a model for dimensions then when you are done with it sell it? This might not be the best answer, but I think having one on hand is better than relying on someone's measuring skills.

[snapper]

Rolf

I dont know that I have that plug, however, would some pictures and measurements from some other rifles, including original LRML help?  I have a couple original Rigbys and a couple Don Brown AH kit rifles.  I might have a TOW plug on a round ball English sporting rifle.

Also, what does your nipple hole look like?   Does it have a shoulder at the bottom that the bottom of the nipple seats into?  Or a straight shot on down?

Fleener

[Bob Roller]

I have a Don Brown/Henry breech plug that's finished and the nipple seat is only deep enough for the 1/4x28 threads and then a small flash hole across to the chamber in the threaded part of the plug which is 3/4x16.In 1987 I went to Canada to an Internatioal Black Powder shooting  match and Stayed with the Canadian team captain,Ted Girodat as did Don Brown and Don Had some X rays of an original Henry breech and it was drilled from right to left under the nipple seat and then the left side was threaded and a screw inserted and upset,filed and engraved.The right side had a shallower thread and a screw inserted and covered with a platinum plug.
   I have some full size drawings of the Henry breech/lock area copied at our local library and will send Rolf a copy this morning in flat format so a fold won't interfere with studying it.
Bob Roller

[Rolf]

Rolf

I dont know that I have that plug, however, would some pictures and measurements from some other rifles, including original LRML help?  I have a couple original Rigbys and a couple Don Brown AH kit rifles.  I might have a TOW plug on a round ball English sporting rifle.

Also, what does your nipple hole look like?   Does it have a shoulder at the bottom that the bottom of the nipple seats into?  Or a straight shot on down?

Fleener

Thank you for your offer Fleener. If you could do the measurements on your Don Brown Kit rifles, it would be a great help. I plan to use 1/4 -28 nipple with a shoulder, would like the measurments taken from the edge of the threaded hole.

Best regards
Rolf

[Rolf]

I have a suggestion - how about buying the right hand one from TOTW and use it as a model for dimensions then when you are done with it sell it? This might not be the best answer, but I think having one on hand is better than relying on someone's measuring skills.

Sensible idea, but they are out of stock and they don't know when they will be in available again.
Also TOTW charges a small fortune to send stuff abroad. I bought a left-hand Hawken lock + breech plug+ tang a couple of years a ago. They charged 150$ for shipping. A USPS small package international priority would have cost less than half of that.

Best regards
Rolf

[Rolf]

   I have some full size drawings of the Henry breech/lock area copied at our local library and will send Rolf a copy this morning in flat format so a fold won't interfere with studying it.
Bob Roller

Thank you Bob, I really appreciate all your help with this project.

Best regards

Rolf

[Bob Roller]

Sending locks across the world isn't hard.I sent a bunch of them to Germany and vexed the counter clerk at the PO by filling out the paper work in German."Steinschloss replika"was usually all that was needed.
Bob Roller.

[Daryl]

Shipping prices have sky-rocketed in the last few years.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have a suggestion - how about buying the right hand one from TOTW and use it as a model for dimensions then when you are done with it sell it? This might not be the best answer, but I think having one on hand is better than relying on someone's measuring skills.

Sensible idea, but they are out of stock and they don't know when they will be in available again.
Also TOTW charges a small fortune to send stuff abroad. I bought a left-hand Hawken lock + breech plug+ tang a couple of years a ago. They charged 150$ for shipping. A USPS small package international priority would have cost less than half of that.

Best regards
#@!! $#@* -- that shipping price is robbery for sure - forget my suggestion. The cost of shipping anywhere now a days can cost more than the item you are buying
Rolf

[snapper]

It has been since 2010 or 2011 since I bought the parts for this rifle, but I think that this plug is perhaps the one you are wanting to copy.   It came from TOW.

The barrel is 1" at the plug. 

Fleener

[snapper]

This one is from the Don Brown Kit LRML.   The barrel is 1.1 inches at the plug.

Hope this help.

Fleener 

[Bob Roller]

The standing tang in the stock will determine the angle and position of the lock and it MUST align the hammer with the nipple.
The drawing I sent is full scale and show the lock plate in position.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

The Don Brown Breech is heavier at 1.145 but if the drawing I sent is laid on a lit computer or TV with the picture against the light it will give a full picture of a left hand breech section of the Henry.
Bob Roller

[Rolf]

Thank you for the pictures, Fleener.
It looks like my Bolster is about 1/8" to thick. If that's correct the diameter of the face for the nipple can't be much more than 3/8" and the hole for the threaded portion of the nippel must be off center towards the outside of the bolster.

Whats the thickness of your lock panels?

Best regards
Rolf

[Rolf]

The standing tang in the stock will determine the angle and position of the lock and it MUST align the hammer with the nipple.

Bob Roller

Thanks Bob. This explains a lot. On flintlock the lockplate is usually parallel with the barrel and the thickness of the lock panel decided by the thickness of the bolster.

I'll make a "test stock" in pine of the lock panel to check the placement of the lock/ hammer in relation to the barrel when I get your drawings. When I get that right, I can start on the standing tang.

Best regards
Rolf 

[Bob Roller]

The barrel on my "Henry"started as a 1 and 1/8"octagon 45 with a 1 in 18 twist and I had Tom Nixon who has  a bigger lathe to install a Don Brown breech and turn it round and leave the last 2 inches octagon.I traded a lock to Don for a semi finished walnut stalking rifle stock instead of the pistol grip sty;e.I like the trigger guard of the stalking rifle.My "4 pin"lock with Henry hammer and Don's single trigger was used.The front sight was a Lyman 17A with a special windage adjustable base and level and I made the tang sight with .025 increments and an 8x40 adjustment and used the 2 "ears" on top of the tang to make a hinge for the sight to fold on.A small flat spring inlaid under the tang served as a stop when the sight was raised.I shot this against new Sharps and other breech loaders at 500 meters on a local range and the only advantage they had was ease of reloading but I could change the loads from one shot to the next if needed ,I almost forgot,that garrel is a Green Mountain probably intended for a breech loader and the bullet was the 451112 Sharps/Bailey weighing 485 grains in pure lead
and lubed abd sized to .450,the land diameter of the bore.I hope this isn't too boring but it represents my own choice of muzzle loading rifles and has for decades,
Bob Roller

[snapper]

Rolf

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you.   

See the attached pictures, hopfully this helps.

Fleener

[Rolf]

Thank you for the pictures Fleener. It looks like the bolster is about somewhere between 1/6" and 1/8" to thick.
I've started making a new breech blank, but will wait for the patterns from Bob Roller before I carve the bolster.

Best regards
Rolf 

[snapper]

Bob Roller had asked me for some pictures of my Rigby lock to help Rolf with.  I emailed them to you (Bob) and posted them here as well just in case.   This lock is a Stanton and is the lock on my Rigby that was made in 1864.  This rifle was originally purchased by one of the Irish shooters (Robert Greenhill) shooting in the original Creedmoor long range ML matches.

The pictures show the lock at rest, half cock and full cock.

Fleener

[Bob Roller]

Snapper,
MANY thanks for again proving a picture is worth more than a thousand words.These locks are a labor intensive thing and I made (maybe)
30-40 copies and 7 or 8 to a smaller scale and have one of those setting on the mantle ready for the springs and a fly.
Bob Roller
Looking thru my pictures here I see I have a lock plate for the Rigby pattern.I think I made 4 locks using it,maybe.

[Rolf]

Bob Roller had asked me for some pictures of my Rigby lock to help Rolf with.  I emailed them to you (Bob) and posted them here as well just in case.   This lock is a Stanton and is the lock on my Rigby that was made in 1864.  This rifle was originally purchased by one of the Irish shooters (Robert Greenhill) shooting in the original Creedmoor long range ML matches.

The pictures show the lock at rest, half cock and full cock.

Fleener

Thank you for the pictures. I'm going to make a new spring and link for one of my locks and see if it reduces the force needed to cock the lock.

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

That link and spring geometry will guarantee a solid  strike to the cap.There will be a resistance to the initial cocking from the nipple to half cock and from half cocked to full almost none.The fancy bridle with 4 screws and the sear on a precisely fit pin plus close tolerance tumbler  support on opposing shafts completes the lock' mechanism.I tried to explain the springs in a recent post but that's like a mail order hair cut,difficult.Springs like these are another skill set as is the filing of the bridle and the profile of the tumbler. and sear.I am glad the British opted for these high end locks and do take time to make and when I made my first one in 1987 I had a fine Stanton lock loaned to me by Lynton McKenzie,a master engraver.I then had to figure out how to go about copying these parts that made it a gun lock.It was a new experience in lock making and when I showed it at the Fall Shoot at Friendship,R.E.Davis bought it for $250,an UNHEARD of price for a lock.
Several gun builders including the late John Bivins were glad to see a new made lock that was different and made for a VERRRRY narrow market.There was a smaller version made and again,thanks to Lynton McKenzie I copied another "4 pin" lock for a boy's riffle or a pistol.
I want to thank the 30 or 40 people who bought the full size version and the 7 or 8 who bought the little ones.
Bob Roller