Author Topic: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker  (Read 3416 times)

Offline Joe S.

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Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« on: February 07, 2024, 12:21:31 PM »
The gun that killed Crazy Horse






Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2024, 12:39:47 PM »
Looks like he was lucky he was not killed!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse
« Last Edit: February 08, 2024, 11:53:03 AM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline J.M.Browning

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2024, 02:32:27 PM »
Im on gun broker daily and yes I have and will buy Firearms on GunBroker buyer be very cautious on this type of sale on gun broker .
Thank you Boone , Glass with all the contemplate I read with todays (shooter's lightly taken as such) , you keep things simple .

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2024, 06:27:06 PM »
The gun is worth 10 bucks, the story is worth nothing.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2024, 06:29:59 PM »
I'll make you one that's indistinguishable for 1/10 of the asking price, and I'll come up with a really good story as well!  8)
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2024, 07:16:39 PM »
The seller probably isn't lying.  That old relic probably put down a horse that went crazy from Rabies or some other affliction.  LOL 
Joel Hall

Offline Dobyns

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2024, 07:32:21 PM »
The gun is worth 10 bucks, the story is worth nothing.

C'mon Mike, tell us what you really think.   ;D

A small gunshop local to me has a slightly longer relic (read POS) like that hanging on the wall.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2024, 07:41:25 PM by Dobyns »

Offline 120RIR

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2024, 07:37:01 PM »
The only thing missing is the notarized Certificate of Authenticity.  Hang on a moment...I'll get one off the interwebs right now.

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2024, 08:01:31 PM »
By no means am I saying that the Gunbroker gun is authentic however I looked up Crazy Horse on Wikipedia and this is a cut and paste from the article.  Not sure how reliable anything is on the internet but here is what it says. 

Controversy over Black Buffalo Woman
In the fall of 1870, Crazy Horse invited Black Buffalo Woman to accompany him on a buffalo hunt in the Slim Buttes area of present-day northwestern South Dakota.[25] She was the wife of No Water, who had a reputation for drinking too much.[9] It was the Lakota's custom to allow a woman to divorce her husband at any time. She did so by moving in with relatives or with another man, or by placing the husband's belongings outside their lodge. Although some compensation might be required to smooth over hurt feelings, the rejected husband was expected to accept his wife's decision. No Water was away from camp when Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman left for the buffalo hunt.

No Water tracked down Crazy Horse and Black Buffalo Woman in the Slim Buttes area. When he found them in a teepee, he called Crazy Horse's name from outside. When Crazy Horse answered, No Water stuck a pistol into the teepee and aimed for Crazy Horse. Touch the Clouds, Crazy Horse's first cousin and son of Lone Horn, was sitting in the teepee nearest the entry. He knocked the pistol upward as No Water fired, deflecting the bullet to Crazy Horse's upper jaw. No Water left, with Crazy Horse's relatives in hot pursuit. No Water ran his horse until it died and continued on foot until he reached the safety of his own village.[17]

Several elders convinced Crazy Horse and No Water that no more blood should be shed. As compensation for the shooting, No Water gave Crazy Horse three horses. Because Crazy Horse was with a married woman, he was stripped of his title as Shirt Wearer (leader).[9]
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2024, 11:22:48 PM »
Dang, I'd hate to go the rest of my life without wearing a shirt. Think of the sunburn. :o
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Joe S.

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2024, 01:43:11 AM »
At least the debate isn't over the fact the gun was once a flintlock...

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2024, 04:47:02 PM »
The gun is worth 10 bucks, the story is worth nothing.
Mike is right again but it is a weird looking thing.
Bob Roller

Offline TDW

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2024, 06:34:17 PM »
I read the rather lengthy description, expecting to see that Wendell Grangaard had authenticated the story from the Togia inscriptions on the stock. ::)
Tom

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2024, 04:18:21 AM »
Togia...I just learned about this BS  last year. You might say I'm a skeptic. ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Taylorz1

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2024, 12:09:19 AM »
Wendall Grangaard invented the existence of a secret previously unknown native american language then called it Togia. Next he wrote a book about it and now he makes a tidy living selling garbage guns he has scratched with his made up language. It would be funny except that he is a con artist
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 12:17:37 AM by Taylorz1 »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2024, 12:34:58 AM »
Wendall Grangaard invented the existence of a secret previously unknown native american language then called it Togia. Next he wrote a book about it and now he makes a tidy living selling garbage guns he has scratched with his made up language. It would be funny except that he is a con artist
I know guys that are all in on this stuff and have been shown the scratching....Looks just like all the other scratches and dents to me.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Taylorz1

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2024, 07:27:32 AM »
Yup its crazy how this Togia nonsense has taken some people. There have been some obviously fake BS Togia guns that have sold for tens of thousands of dollars. There was a recent auction with a lot of his guns “guns of history” I think the auction was titled. Bunch of fabricated BS histories about how the scratches show that this gun was owned by Iron Eagle and was given to Running  Moon etc etc. interestingly the auction “guaranteed” the guns to be authentic but the actual guarantor of the auction was the C-corp created by Wendall that published the nonsense book on Togia not the auction house so the guarantee comes from a house of straw.

Offline spgordon

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2024, 04:44:09 PM »
What is the book that Wendell Grangaard wrote about this Togia language? I love to read about these sorts of scams/inventions--and often use these sorts of examples in class.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Taylorz1

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2024, 05:49:17 PM »
https://www.agmuseumstore.com/documenting-the-weapons-used-at-the-little-bighorn.html

Looks like the auction was “guns of history” and pulled down all their lot descriptions etc


Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2024, 06:59:22 PM »
   The old saying is " A fool an his money will soon part "
   But I'd go $15.00 on it....lol

Offline ScottC60

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2024, 12:47:32 AM »
Perhaps there were two natives named Crazy Horse? 

The famous one here in Nebraska/South Dakota was killed at Fort Robinson in western Nebraska:

Crazy Horse (Lakota: Tȟašúŋke Witkó, literally 'His-Horse-Is-Crazy'); c. 1840 – September 5, 1877) was a Lakota war leader of the Oglala band in the 19th century. He took up arms against the United States federal government to fight against encroachment by white American settlers on Native American territory and to preserve the traditional way of life of the Lakota people. His participation in several famous battles of the Black Hills War on the northern Great Plains, among them the Fetterman Fight in 1866, in which he acted as a decoy, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876, in which he led a war party to victory, earned him great respect from both his enemies and his own people.

In September 1877, four months after surrendering to U.S. troops under General George Crook, Crazy Horse was fatally wounded by a bayonet-wielding military guard while allegedly resisting the guards' instructions.  The Lakota came for his body and his burial location is a secret still to this day.


Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Interesting gun up for auction on gunbroker
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2025, 07:17:17 AM »
I know this thread is a year old, but I just found it. 

The subject gun has been posted for sale on the Collector's Armory website for quite a while.  A couple of years, at least.  Here is a link:    Blanket Gun Used to Shoot Crazy Horse [https://collectorsfirearms.com/170737-blanket-gun-used-to-shoot-crazy-horse-ah8052.html/

I guess I've forgotten how to post links properly, but that ought to get you to the website.  I think the Gunbroker seller probably is Collector's Armory.  I have no personal experience dealing with them, but as far as I know, they are legitimate.  As noted in the gun's description (see post #1 as well as the writeup on the Collector's Armory website), this weapon was illustrated and described in an article in the May 2000 issue of The Gun Report, in "The Alteration of American Indian Firearms," by Bill Ahearn.  I have that issue, and the article is open in front of me as I type.  After a pretty thorough description of the gun and the modifications done to it, Mr. Ahearn wrote this:  An old note which came with the gun states that at some time after the percussion conversion it was cut down to the pistol form of Blanket Gun it now has and became the property of an American Indian named Bad Heart.  Apparently, Mr. Bad Heart also had a bad temper, as this pistol was confiscated from him after he tried to shoot the local Indian agent.  Just when this happened is uncertain.  We do know that there was an Ogalla [sic] Sioux named Bad Heart Bull, and his favorite weapon was a pistol.  It was the weapon used to wound the famous Sioux Chief Crazy Horse, in what was a very nasty family dispute.  Whether or not that weapon and this firearm are one and the same will never be known [Bold text mine].  The note that came with the pistol is type written and appears to be quite old.  It is not dated and is unsigned.  It reads "The old pistol was taken from a bad Indian by the name of 'Bad Heart,' who had it loaded pretty full and carried it over his left arm in plain sight.  Father saw him try to kill the agent with it but was frustrated by grandfather who jumped in and threw him down and took his knife and gun away from him.  Father says it is probably an old 'flint-lock,' and when it was taken it was indeed loaded very heavily and primed with a great big old percussion cap. He does not think it had ever been shot by the Indian, who carried it around to scare people" (pp.23-24). 

From this, I think it is a bit of a stretch to state that this is definitely the gun that wounded Crazy Horse.  It might have been, but Mr. Ahearn was unconvinced, and that's good enough for me.

I think it may be possible to track down the name of the Indian Agent, just to round out the story, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that.  It might also be helpful to know from whom Collector's Armory acquired the piece, as that may assist in identifying the "father" and "grandfather" characters in the story.  I also wonder if the gun might still be loaded... stranger things have happened.

Regarding Wendell Grangaard, I'm not aware of his involvement with this particular gun.  I've never met the man, but I have his book, Documenting the Weapons Used at the Little Bighorn.  There isn't really much about "togia" in the book, but Mr. Grangaard's name was all over the auction sites for a while.  People would evidently send him guns to be examined and he would find togia symbols, construct a story from them regarding the weapon's provenance, and write a letter documenting what he found.  His letter would accompany the guns when they sold.  Guns and artifacts "lettered" by Mr. Grangaard apparently brought a real premium. 

As near as I can determine, the "togia" symbols were used primarily to indicate ownership, society and/or tribal or band membership, and sometimes to document events in which the marked weapon was used.  Not just scratched markings, either.  Mr. Grangaard maintained that tack patterns, and the use of brass versus iron tacks, also had similar meanings.  I looked for everything I could find on this, and even made lists, drawings, and interpretations of the togia symbols which were shown and described, just because this sort of thing interests me.  I haven't counted them, but they fill up about five somewhat disorganized pages.  However, if you look at the photographs of the guns Mr. G. has examined, the markings are frequently very, very faint.  Only he can say for sure that they are intentional markings.

So, this "togia" business is intriguing, but when a single white guy claims to be the trusted repository for, and sole authority on, an ancient and esoteric native practice of any kind, I'm a bit skeptical.  Also, some of the artifacts are questionable.  For example, one reportedly togia-marked tomahawk I've seen offered for sale is obviously African.  However, from reading about Mr. Grangaard and his collection, it is important to know that he has his defenders, too, and he is evidently very knowledgeable regarding native and military weapons of the Indian Wars era of the American west.  His book is very well done, and it is an interesting read, giving a plausible native perspective on that famous battle.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, I'm not aware of Mr. Grangaard's having examined the subject gun, but I would be interested in his take on it. I have no doubt he would find some togia marks, given the time and place of its usage.  It is an interesting old gun, regardless.

Notchy Bob
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 02:09:16 PM by Notchy Bob »
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