The L&R conundrum

[bptactical]

A thread on "that other M/L site" got me to thinking so I am soliciting thoughts
 It seems that L&R locks are either loved or hated.
If so, why?

I recall seeing a while back "Upgrades" for older L&R locks- what was the upgrade and why?

The reason I ask is I am in process on a NOS Sharon Trade Rifle kit build and the lock is a bone stock 50 year old L&R. What tuning would y'all recommend?

Thank you in advance

[wormey]

If the lock is 50 years old it is probably fine.  When Liston and L.C. Rice owned the business and sold these locks the quality was high and they got high marks for their products.  Today, not so much.  :)Wormey

[Pukka Bundook]

BP,

All I can suggest is to take the lock on its own merit.
We can't use blanket statements as you know. Some locks of all makers are better than others.
Look at how all the parts fit, see how it stands at half and full cock. see how much pressure to release the sear. Is the cock tight in the tumbler, with a bit of oil, how does the hammer  (frizzen) open and close on the pan.
Are there gaps between pan cover and pan?
How good or bad are the casting marks?

And of course, how does it spark?

I have an old L&R that has lived here 20-odd years and never used, maybe 30 years, but it is going to get used soon I hope!
It is hard to see any casting marks even as it came .  It sparks well too.
Each case needs to be judged separately.

Best,
Richard.

[Mike Brooks]

I have used L&R when I had to. I like to use their classic on Lehigh because it helps with the architecture. I used their bailes locks for sxs guns because there are no other reasonable options. I had a single barrel shotgun in 12 bore I used for skeet that I used a queen Ann on. It was a very good and fast lock. It wasn't unusual to get 140 shots out of a flint.
 My main gripe is styling. The locks are too small and the hammer throw is too short. I built mainly early guns and larger locks were what I preferred.  Chambers bigger 6 inch English locks and some of the Davis germanic locks worked well for me.

[bigsmoke]

There is an old saying that goes something like this:
You can please all of the people some of the time,
And you can please some of the people all of the time,
But you can't please all the people all of the time.

I guess I would be in the some of the people all of the time category.
When we were in the business of building big bore rifles, we used L & R locks exclusively.  And this was 20 to 25 years ago.  They always delivered excellent results with a rifle that worked great, every time the trigger was pulled.  In many cases this involved large and dangerous game.  Most recently, I converted a T/C PA Hunter rifle from flintlock to percussion using an L & R lock.  I couldn't be happier with that conversion.  However, that rifle had been updated with an L & R flintlock about 5 years ago, and I was not happy with that one.  It had a very short flint life and it did not spark very well.  You never knew if or when it was going to go off.  I know, I could have spent some time on tuning the lock, but I don't care much for flinters and I didn't feel it was worth the effort.
John (Bigsmoke)

[bptactical]

Keep in mind this is a percussion lock- Leman style I believe

[Mike Brooks]

I have no experience with percussion locks of any kind. I thought this was a discussion about flintlocks. I believe even a CVA percussion lock works as good as any other percussion lock.

[Bob Roller]

Percussion locks run the quality road from "just usable"on many American guns to the fine,overbuilt English Brazier and Stanton types to Swiss and German types that reflect the ideas those cultures.When I was making locks on a regular schedule I made one upgrade in old designs and they were a bridle with two screws at the top plus a  half cock that would not slip and an intercepting cam called a "FLY" that
prevents an unwanted stop from fully cocked to the cap.Flint locks with every piece forged and filed would be costly now but good quality steel castings make them usable and affordable.Toward the end of the flintlock era there were locks made to hopefully stop the onset of the
simple and surefire cap guns.A Manton lock was said to cost the salary a top school teacher could earn in a year.I have said before that the real lock is the mechanism that is not seen in use and that is the springs/tumbler/sear and bridle to keep the parts aligned.I fired a fine Manton rifle while visiting Tom Dawson in the early 1970's and fired a flintlock that had the ignition speed of a cap lock and the the lock was
capable of delivering sparks that sizzled in the pan while spinning in it.The developing of impact sensitive compounds in a very tiny cup that was placed on a tube made the flintlock a part of the past until the come back we all know now that began in 1933.
Bob Roller

[Gaeckle]

I have no experience with percussion locks of any kind. I thought this was a discussion about flintlocks. I believe even a CVA percussion lock works as good as any other percussion lock.

No Mike, CVA locks are definitely the bottom of the barrel. When you compare it to a Davis or an L&R you readily seen quality difference

[Steeltrap]

I recently purchased an L&R and upon receipt, had to send it back as the bridle was incorrectly machined.

Now, I've always said that you pay with time or you pay with money. That being stated I also wanted to tune the lock "from scratch" (and it's almost scratch). In addition to filing flat the lock plate, polishing the tumbler bearing ends I also had to lightly file\stone the full cock notch and the sear if I wanted any sort of trigger pull below ten pounds. (Which I do)

I also removed the waterproof lug on the pan cover.

I had two "close calls" that had I gone a tad more, I'd be ordering replacement parts.....but all's good. I got a little judicious when I was cleaning up the frizzen screw bulkhead, (you can see that in the pic....but it's only the very end where I got wonky with the file) and when polishing the pan my lovely wife showed me some new Dremmel stones.....and I went against my rule of using a Dremmel. Fortunately, I had enough pan "meat" to salvage that.

In any event, these pics are not from all angles. But here's the start, and where I'm now at. The lock sparks well even with the much to long flints of 3/4". this smaller lock requires smaller flints....but for now I'm using what I have.

[Dphariss]

It might be OK at that era. But which lock? It may need some mods to the cock if its the water proof pan lock.

[Jim Kibler]

Just look at what the best builders use.  This will help answer your question.  Everyone can have a voice on forums like this, but they are not equal.  Just the truth.

To go into more specifics, the designs are mediocre at best and the fit / finish are even worse.

[alacran]

That is a Durrs Egg lock. I have two guns with that lock on them. I had to take them out and look at them. The cock on your lock doesn't appear right. If it is on half cock, the top of the cock does not appear to be in the right angle. Of course it could be being distorted in your photo.
Both of mine have the boss on the bottom of the frizzen and I haven't had any issues with them.
This lock was offered as a kit at one time. The upper one is a kit lock.

[Dphariss]

Just look at what the best builders use.  This will help answer your question.  Everyone can have a voice on forums like this, but they are not equal.  Just the truth.

To go into more specifics, the designs are mediocre at best and the fit / finish are even worse.

I have used a number of L&R locks over the past 40 plus years. Remember that the company has changed and they IMO changed things that were better left alone. The early ie first gen locks were pretty good. Things are not so good now. And need “professional help” more than in the past. At least one design the 1700 is probably tje best small lock DESIGN I know of. But now needs a rework by someone with the equipment to do it. As a pistol lock its very good once fixed. But the last one needed my tig welder and drills, reamers and knowledge to fix. Its really a shame.

[TDM]

The L&R locks that I’ve seen that were made in the last few years require quite a bit of work to be acceptably functional. Not a good choice now.

[Long Ears]

He's talking Percussion lock boys....

[Steeltrap]

That is a Durrs Egg lock. I have two guns with that lock on them. I had to take them out and look at them. The cock on your lock doesn't appear right. If it is on half cock, the top of the cock does not appear to be in the right angle. Of course it could be being distorted in your photo.
Both of mine have the boss on the bottom of the frizzen and I haven't had any issues with them.
This lock was offered as a kit at one time. The upper one is a kit lock.

The lock in my pic is the Manton. It measures 4-3/4″ X 7/8″.  The Durrs Egg measures 5″ X l5/l6″.

[smart dog]

"A thread on "that other M/L site" got me to thinking so I am soliciting thoughts
 It seems that L&R locks are either loved or hated.
If so, why?"

Here is why:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.msg607217#msg607217

How many times have you read posts complaining about function or quality of Kibler, Laubach, or Chambers locks?  Very few if any, right?  That is because those locks are made well, designed well, and have good quality control over the product.  Now take L&R.  You have guys saying they've used them for years and they were fine and you have just as many others saying they would not use one unless they absolutely must because of poor quality and or design.  That should tell you a lot.  It means at the least, the company has a quality control problem.  When I criticize a product, I provide detailed evidence usually backed up with photos. Nor would I endorse a product without supplying the same evidence and details.  Unfortunately, lefties don't have many lock choices and L&R provides some styles of locks not made by other makers.  So sometimes you may have to go with L&R but I find that for every dollar saved purchasing an L&R over a Chambers, Kibler, or Laubach lock, I spend $2 of my time bringing it up to a standard comparable with those locks.   

dave

[Steeltrap]

...So sometimes you may have to go with L&R but I find that for every dollar saved purchasing an L&R over a Chambers, Kibler, or Laubach lock, I spend $2 of my time bringing it up to a standard comparable with those locks.   

dave

You pay with time, or you pay with money. It's like ordering a stock blank, or ordering a Kibler kit. (But you know the Kibler will (likely...unless you're named Mike or the like) turn out better.

[Dphariss]

He's talking Percussion lock boys....

Don’t matter. Things here were so far out of alignment that the sear would not properly engage the tumbler.








The time spent could double the price of the lock to the end user.  But if the maker choses the lock then its HIS responsibility to make it right one way or another. If the client buys to lock he has to foot the bill. Its the makers responsibility to make sure the installed lock works as its supposed to in all respects.
There are locks available that will work properly out of the box and may need nothing at all or maybe a little polish here and there or trigger pull adjustment. But when you want a specific lock design you may be faced with something that is a kit. Sometimes there is no choice. Such as if you want a recessed breech Manton lock for a British design firearm. Then the building/repairing begins.
If I want a Germanic lock I buy a Chambers. Round faced? Kibler. Something for a late flintlock? Most likely a Kibler again though Chambers are good as well. I have not used enough of anyone else's locks to make a statement. Builders (as opposed to assemblers) who have been working on 18th and 19th c firearms for some time are a different class than someone who is brand new.

[alacran]

Steeltrap, for some reason your pictures do not come up on my laptop. They do come up on my phone. I tried to look at them on my laptop because they weren't very clear on my phone. That is why I took out the two guns in my picture. I never thought to look at my pistol with the Manton lock. If I had I would have seen that yours is a Manton.
I have over a thousand shots with that lock. I didn't have to do anything other than polish all the parts, also I did not remove the boss on the pan cover of the frizzen.
I have had very good luck with L&R locks, and when I have had a problem. like a mainspring breaking I have gotten excellent warranty service from them.
I have had some issues with a Chambers lock and again I had excellent warranty service.
If I build a pistol for target shooting it will have a Manton lock on it, and I will buy it directly from L&R.

[Bob Roller]

In the late 1970's I was contacted by black powder shooters in Germany after seeing some locks I had made using the Chet Shoults Ketland
and another Ketland with the double throated "cock".They were impressed by the fit and finish of the parts that made them locks,the small mechanism with the small but strong springs.The Shoults and the Ketland were good performers and the Shoults could be altered and used on a pistol.Some of them had used the L&R small Manton and had mainspring problems caused by poor quality control by a foundry.
I called L&R and asked if I could buy the external parts for their Small Manton-Durs Egg and Late English locks and  was told I could buy any lock parts I wanted from them.That began a good run and gave me shop work until I decided to stop shop work due to lower spinal stenosis.
The American market,such as it was had little appreciation for the odd form of skilled labor and the lock had to be the cheapest thing on the gun but the Germans were willing to pay a bench craftsman for the skills and time involved in making these parts.That attitude has changed
now and there are no really cheap locks offered now and the CLA Show is proof of big improvements that do not reflect "cheap"is mandated.
Bob Roller
 

[Steeltrap]

Steeltrap, for some reason your pictures do not come up on my laptop. They do come up on my phone. I tried to look at them on my laptop because they weren't very clear on my phone. That is why I took out the two guns in my picture. I never thought to look at my pistol with the Manton lock. If I had I would have seen that yours is a Manton.
I have over a thousand shots with that lock. I didn't have to do anything other than polish all the parts, also I did not remove the boss on the pan cover of the frizzen.
I have had very good luck with L&R locks, and when I have had a problem. like a mainspring breaking I have gotten excellent warranty service from them.
I have had some issues with a Chambers lock and again I had excellent warranty service.
If I build a pistol for target shooting it will have a Manton lock on it, and I will buy it directly from L&R.

You should be able to zoom in on the pics. If you can’t I don’t know why.

[Mike Brooks]

I have no experience with percussion locks of any kind. I thought this was a discussion about flintlocks. I believe even a CVA percussion lock works as good as any other percussion lock.

No Mike, CVA locks are definitely the bottom of the barrel. When you compare it to a Davis or an L&R you readily seen quality difference

Oh, I agree, but with cappers, CVA locks will still go off reliably. When it comes to flint locks you can't get away with CVA quality.

[Jim Kibler]

I sometimes think insulting someone's gun is about like insulting their wife or dog.  Maybe that's why there are passionate defenders...