Trying to decide between Fusil De Chasse or Trade Gun Build

[Leighway]

Hello all,

I am new to the forum.

I have built 3 BP rifles to date, and am wanting to build a .62 smoothbore.

I really like the looks of the FDC, but have read they can be uncomfortable to shoot due to the shape of the buttstock, drop, etc. I have very limited experience shooting the FDC and am wondering how it compares to the Type C, D or even the type G gun from a shooting standpoint.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I owned a Centre Mark Fusil de Chasse in 20 bore smooth, and it was brutal as a cheek slapper.  It ended up with Hatchet Jack Bradford and he had me add 3/8" drop at the comb by bending the stock with hot oil.  I drew profile tracings of the stock before and after bending for comparison, and it made a huge difference in the pleasure of shooting it.
As well as drop at the comb, another thing that influences the felt recoil is the pitch of the buttplate on these arms.  The exaggerated pitch on repro fusils forces the gun up on recoil, into your face.  I cannot remember how Hudson Bay trade guns recoil for shooting pleasure, though my brother had one in 12 guage and may comment if he sees this.
For pure shooting pleasure, Chambers' Pennsylvania fowler is exellent.  I shoot .600" pure lead balls, 86 gr. FFg GOEX and a 10 Oz. patch all day without discomfort, and excellent accuracy.  In my experience, drop at the comb is the critical dimension...aim for something around 1 5/16" to 1 3/8".

[rich pierce]

There are early French fusils that do not have the exaggerated “cow’s foot” profile. But of course if going with a precarve stock, one is bound by how it is shaped. 

[B.Habermehl]

The type G trade gun I built for myself with a correct barrel profile and dimensions, is pleasant to shoot. It’s a 28 bore gun that shoots a .535 round ball. With shot it’s much more lively but not punishing. The gun weighs less than 7 lbs and has a 46 in barrel. I have another barrel in 24 gage I expect no appreciable difference in feel or performance for my next gun. BJH

[axelp]

My  Jim Chamber's PA Fowler is very comfortable to shoot. It fits me just right. Have had one for well over a decade now and love it.
My newer TVM (Matt Avance) French Tulle does have more drop, but maybe not as much a some do as it shoots good for me as well (no cheek slap). The lop is a tad shorter on that gun so it does not fit me quite as well.

Both are good solid hunters. They are .62 cal and recoil can be described as gentle.

oops!  You mentioned trade gun as your other option and I do not have personal experience with those so my comparison is only half beneficial for you. sorry.

K

[Leighway]

There are early French fusils that do not have the exaggerated “cow’s foot” profile. But of course if going with a precarve stock, one is bound by how it is shaped.
[/quote
Thanks to all for the feedback. Assuming i can find a good set of plans, I will shape the stock myself. I have Hamilton's book and Brousards for reference, but do not have a set of plans other than TOTW fusil de chasse. Those plans have the "cows foot" and exaggerated pitch angle on the butt.  I have not found other plans, but will keep looking.

[rich pierce]

I recommend yuh buy “For Trade and Treaty” by Ryan Gale if you don’t have it and look at the following guns.

French trade gun 1730-1760 pages 11-16.
Of course the English Carolina gun can be comfortable to shoot. I would not make one as delicate in the wrist as the Bumford gun, pages 29-34, same book.

The book is organized in a strange way but I love the book. I built a trade quality fowler/trade gun based on the Wilson in the book. Pages 135-140. Because of the pitch it’s very comfortable.

If you feel you need plans look for a video on making plans that was recorded at the Kempton Gunmakers Fair 2023, presentation by Eric Von Aschwege.

Bought plans are problematic unless all parts are identical.

[Leighway]

I will look for that book. Thank you for the input. I agree with you on plans. There are definitely limitations. I was fortunate enough to see an original Wilson gun and some original French guns at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Nebraska. I will see if I can find
" For Trade and Treaty" .

 

I recommend yuh buy “For Trade and Treaty” by Ryan Gale if you don’t have it and look at the following guns.

French trade gun 1730-1760 pages 11-16.
Of course the English Carolina gun can be comfortable to shoot. I would not make one as delicate in the wrist as the Bumford gun, pages 29-34, same book. D

The book is organized in a strange way but I love the book. I built a trade quality fowler/trade gun based on the Wilson in the book. Pages 135-140. Because of the pitch it’s very comfortable.

If you feel you need plans look for a video on making plans that was recorded at the Kempton Gunmakers Fair 2023, presentation by Eric Von Aschwege.

Bought plans are problematic unless all parts are identical.

[Daryl]

The NW trade gun by Curly G. that I had, was a horrid cheek and shoulder slapper. At 5 1/2 pounds, maybe 6 pounds (maybe) it was way to light for such a bore.
It was a few decades after that gun, before I even tried a flinter & I still flinch, even with the .36 that has ZERO recoil.

[alacran]

I made a Fusil Fin in .62 cal. I made it following TOW plans. I made the stock profile exactly to their plans. I admit that at the time I thought it is was cool looking gun. I still think so. I believe the plans were drawn up from an original Fusil de Chasse that TOW owns.
The first time I shot it, my first thought was that it was engineered for maximum recoil. That is not to say that it wouldn't shoot, but I figured that the Frenchmen of the times must have been masochists and the gun designer was the Marquis de Sade.
I trooped on with that gun for about 20 years. I actually won smoothbore trail-walks and paper matches with it. Of course, if I did well with it, I would have a noticeable mouse on my right cheek.
After I built a smoothbore based on an English profile, similar to Turvey's, I quit shooting the Gallic weapon, except in reenactments, where only blanks are shot.

[Daryl]

seems to me, most musket designs were meant to be pointed, not deliberately aimed.

[Leighway]

 I have some time before I start this smoothbore project. I will take a look at the PA Fowler, Turvey's gun, and the "Type G" Carolina gun. It looks like "For Treaty or Trade" book is available so we will take a look at that too. Researching these guns is almost as fun as building and shooting them. I appreciate the input guys, thanks again.

Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Daryl, I think that you are correct when it comes to military muskets, such as the Brown Bess, Charleville, and Potzdam muskets.  The strategy of the era was to form line at 50 paces and have at it, followed by a bayonette charge.  The idea was to fill the air with lead, and then there was the old predudice that to aim at a man to deliberately kill him with the shot was murder.
I have had some experience shooting various models of the Brown Bess from the Long Land Pattern (1st model) through the 2nd model and 3rd model or India pattern.  The only Bess that you (I) can get my cheek down on the wood to see down the barrel to actually sight, is the 1st model.  Later models of the Bess were too straight in the stock, not enough drop at comb or heel, to actually sight down the barrel.
Trade guns are altogether different, as are guns made for the civilian market, ie:  fowling pieces, with the exception of the French FDC or FF of Tulle or St. Etienne.

[Tumbledown]

Daryl, I think that you are correct when it comes to military muskets, such as the Brown Bess, Charleville, and Potzdam muskets.  The strategy of the era was to form line at 50 paces and have at it, followed by a bayonette charge.  The idea was to fill the air with lead, and then there was the old predudice that to aim at a man to deliberately kill him with the shot was murder.
I have had some experience shooting various models of the Brown Bess from the Long Land Pattern (1st model) through the 2nd model and 3rd model or India pattern.  The only Bess that you (I) can get my cheek down on the wood to see down the barrel to actually sight, is the 1st model.  Later models of the Bess were too straight in the stock, not enough drop at comb or heel, to actually sight down the barrel.
Trade guns are altogether different, as are guns made for the civilian market, ie:  fowling pieces, with the exception of the French FDC or FF of Tulle or St. Etienne.

During the AWI, British soldiers were encouraged to carefully aim, and they practiced whenever possible. The 1764 Regulations directed soldiers to bring the butt way up on the shoulder so as to minimize bending the head, and to sight down the barrel.

The notion of haphazard volley fire is historically inaccurate. I'm sure the reenactorism of aiming over the heads of others has helped perpetuate this.

[Daryl]

Interesting, however the fact remains it is impossible to "carefully" aim down the barrel of most muskets due to the comb height, as Taylor noted.
You could carefully point it, but aim down the barrel - not with the originals I shouldered over at Taylor's diggins.

[alacran]

I would think that sticking a man with a bayonet would be more detestable than murdering with a well placed shot.

[Bob Gerard]

I built a couple of Fusil de Chasse from Pecatonica ( and a Fusil Type D from Clay Smith/Mould and Gun Shop).
I very much enjoy the one Fusil de Chasse I own. It’s very comfortable to shoot and aims very well. Might be my favorite long gun.

[Clark Badgett]

According to Kevin Gladycz’s work on the subject the curvature of the French stock lessened with each decade. Most of the later 1750s trade guns do show stock profiles closer to the M1728-1754 muskets. And many of the kits seem to get their shape from drawings more so than live specimens.

[Mike Brooks]

I'd go with a properly built English fowling gun. They handle like a modern shotgun when made with the correct architecture. 
Military guns suck for a variety of reasons, foremost is the tremendous lock time.
FDCs stink because of their architecture. On the other hand , the earlier French fowling guns and trade guns don't have the horrible architecture the FDC does.
American clubbutt fowling guns are ideal for large calibers as the comb line is close to parallel to the bore.
 Of course my entire post is about shooting shot on the wing. You have all sorts of time to contort yourself to the proper position for shooting round ball at a target.

[Hungry Horse]

 Having owned some of each trade guns I have to say neither one was very comfortable for me to shoot with larger charges. My cure was to build a chiefs grade trade gun in the short barrel length of 30”. That gun was a pure pleasure to carry,hunt with, and fire.

Hungry Horse

[Tumbledown]

Daryl,

Taylor is wrong on several points, notably about needing to get a cheek weld and about filling the air with lead without aiming.

My source is With Zeal and Bayonets Only, which discusses the British Army's tactics during the Revolutionary War. It is clear British soldiers were encouraged to practice and learn how to *aim* their muskets. The 1764 Regulations say the soldier should "raise up the butt so high upon the right shoulder, that you may not be obliged to stoop so much with the head (the right cheek to be close to the butt, and the left eye shut), and look along the barrel with the right eye from the breech pin to the muzzle." THAT is aiming. Further, the book quotes Maj Gen the Earl of Cavan as recommending officers "have at the breech a small sight-channel made, for the advantage and convenience of occasionally taking better aim."

[Clark Badgett]

This oughta be good.

[Arcturus]

I will only add that the "cheek-slapping" discomfort some experience with the French guns and others with a big comb drop is by no means universal.  I have never experienced problems shooting them.  I owned a Centermark FDC and enjoyed it.  I have a contemporary Wilson trade gun with French-style stock.  I've fired many others.  Due to differences in anatomy and perhaps technique, it seems to hammer some people, while others don't notice it.

[Mike Brooks]

I can shoot any amount of drop at the heal, but I have to have at least an inch and a half  of drop at the comb of I get busted.

[Prairie dog shooter]

They bite my cheek bone pretty hard.  I much prefer an English fowler and the Chief's grade trade gun.