Author Topic: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works  (Read 3840 times)

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« on: March 08, 2024, 11:08:35 PM »
Just ordered the J.Hawken PT4511 Rifle plans from Dixie Gun Works.

Anyone have this plan, used it, any feedback welcomed.
Vary vague in the description, to know if this is just the stock, or the whole rifle complete.
Thanks.
 


Offline Bob Roller

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2024, 11:27:00 PM »
No obvious dimensions visible.Is this supposed to be a full size drawing?
Bob Roller

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2024, 12:00:18 AM »
The picture was just from their website.
I honestly have no clue as to what it holds, or the complete plan.
Hence forth and what I'm asking here if anyone has used it, or seen it or has knowledge about it.

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2024, 01:28:35 AM »
Do you have any knowledge of this plan (NOT THE PICTURE
 the picture is just what they're using for a image for said plan.

What I'm asking is if "ANYONE: as a set of these????.
Or has used them from say, a friend???.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2024, 01:50:07 AM »
I have a patent on being wrong about any and every thing ;D ;D ;D.

Bob Roller

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2024, 01:56:51 AM »
You'd be better served to ignore this plan and to just use the "Track of the Wolf" fullstock plan unless you're planning to build a squirrel rifle.  ;D

I asked "IF" you have any knowledge of said plan (NOT THE PICTURE.
Please let's stop anything that is not in this post as a question about the topic at hand.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2024, 02:23:55 AM »
Just ordered the J.Hawken PT4511 Rifle plans from Dixie Gun Works.

Anyone have this plan, used it, any feedback welcomed.
Vary vague in the description, to know if this is just the stock, or the whole rifle complete.
Thanks.
 



OP, lighten up a little.  Your original post asked for any feedback welcomed.  It seems that any feedback is not welcomed.
redheart, I appreciate the endorsement, but I'd need the paper in front of me to give an accurate evaluation.  ALR's best critique for these plans would have been Louis Parker, but alas, he is no longer with us.
I cannot answer the OP's question having had no experience with this sheet of plans/drawings.  So I'll sit back and watch patiently.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2024, 02:36:00 AM »
I'm fine here. just asking for help, With "THIS plan, and the knowledge there of is all.
Again the photo I don't believe or think is "Thé" plan, just a picture being used.

I had already placed an order for the plans.
Again just wondering if anyone has seen them, built from the ect.

Vague answers or statements that doesn't clearly give one any indication to the question being asked
just makes it confusing without explanation.

So instead of going around in circles, was merely asking to  not get this thread all boogered up and respectfully to stay on the subject.
Either one knows about said plan, or not. If so, this is what I wish to find out.
Thanks.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2024, 03:11:16 AM »
I shall try to answer your question.  redheart feels that the drawing of the Hawken rifle will produce a rifle that is too delicate/fine to be a true Hawken.  He bases this from the drawing itself, that appears to have a rather thin barrel for a Hawken.  To me, the drawing has a barrel that is only at most, 7/8" across the flats, where rifles of this style, from the Hawken shop, have barrels in the 1" AF range.  If you were to build the rifle according to this plan, using the drawing exactly, you might have to settle for a small calibre rifle.  I disagree with him that the rifle is too slender.  I have heard other students of these rifles describe Jake Hawken rifles as resembling what we refer to as Southern Mountain rifles in their dimension and style.  Certainly, there is no extra wood left on the stock, particularly along the forestock.  I submit that the stock is dressed down to about 3/32" or 1/8" along the sides of the barrel, or maybe a little less.
What will be most helpful to you as a builder, is to learn who drew the plan using what rifle(s) for their information.  That will give you the opportunity to study the original rifle and or images of them, yourself, to confirm or reject whether the plan is accurate.  Perhaps a phone call to Dixie Gun Works will answer some of your questions, if no one here comes forward with information.
Having never had an original Jake Hawken rifle in my hands, and only these plans for reference, and the desire to create a viable replication of one of Jake's rifles in say .50 calibre, I would go ahead and start with a parallel or gently swamped barrel that is 15/16" or 1" at the breech and between 38" - 42" long.  Use barrel slides/keys and loops to secure it to the stock, and make the rifle as thin and delicate as the plans call for.  I'd also place the front barrel tenon and slide abut 4" back from the  muzzle...I don't see where the artist has placed his front keeper.  It is correct to have a parallel sided plug tang with a pointed or circular terminal.  I feel that the drawing of the trigger guard is fairly close to correct but the scroll at the rear might benefit from a curl that extends down into the scroll.  I don't like where the artist has placed the second butt plate screw...I think it should be about 1 1/2" up from the toe, but again, not having had an original in my hand, I might be all wet.
This sheet of plans may be of great benefit to you in your build but I encourage you to find out as much as you can about the nuances that make a Hawken rifle, as you go along your build.  Acquiring a set of appropriate parts comes second to education.  And best of luck.  I wish you joy in  your build.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2024, 03:30:50 AM »
Thank you Sir. This is for a reference only.
I have been gathering intel and have a list of readings pictures and video links
that I'm using for references, and will continue my education on this rifle.

More than likely 1" across the flats, I have a lot of knowledge(Reading research on the Original Jacob Hawken Rifles
also having seen the one in Cody Wyoming.
But the education continues.

Again I was and am, just trying to see what this plan has from other builders perspective.
I'm "not making" a copy of this Original Hawken, but close along with what I want in and for my rifle.

A .54 Caliber 42" Swamped Barrel
From what I have read and you have stated, there isn't much wood on the forearm, and this will be a slight change to my build as well as the underbelly.
I'm a lefty, so a Flint and a Percussion lock Muzzleloader I will build.

I appreciate your knowledge, Like everything, I will build up my data and start with my findings.
By the time I start the second rifle, I'm sure I'll have a few changes.
These builds are for me, and my perspective of what I think and would have had if I lived in that time frame.
Brass fittings not being one of them.

Something practical, not flashy but elegant in design and use.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 03:35:50 AM by L.H. Smoke Poll »

Offline Joe S.

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2024, 10:11:28 PM »
I think, if built to the exact specs. Tracks plan would be a rifle with way to much wood on it. Smoke poll, you are in the company of some fine hawken builders, very knowledgeable folks. Mr.Sapergia here, Herb, RSells, D Pharriss(sp?) Have all built some mighty fine representations of hawken rifles. I'd be open to accepting their advice,critiques. They did a spot on job with helping a lot of folks here, including me.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2024, 10:35:48 PM »
 L.H.Smoke, The majority of the full stock Hawken rifles available to study for some reason are larger than .54 caliber, several being .58 and a couple known in .62. Good luck in your project.

Hungry Horse

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2024, 10:46:59 PM »
I think, if built to the exact specs. Tracks plan would be a rifle with way to much wood on it. Smoke poll, you are in the company of some fine Hawken builders, very knowledgeable folks. Mr. Sapergia here, Herb, R.Sells, D Pharriss(sp?) Have all built some mighty fine representations of Hawken rifles. I'd be open to accepting their advice, critiques. They did a spot on job with helping a lot of folks here, including me.

Always open to knowledge. I'm not building a replica so to speak, just deigning my own rifle based off from the Jacob Hawken early design
in a left hand Flint and a Left Hand Percussion.

Appreciate your reply

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2024, 10:48:55 PM »
L.H.Smoke, The majority of the full stock Hawken rifles available to study for some reason are larger than .54 caliber, several being .58 and a couple known in .62. Good luck in your project.

Hungry Horse

Thanks Hungry Horse

Offline redheart

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2024, 12:41:54 AM »
For anyone interested in historical correctness, I don't believe you'll find evidence of a left handed Hawken

Offline Hawg

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2024, 01:15:03 AM »
What you get is what you see in the pic. Nothing more. It's just a full size drawing.

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2024, 01:23:48 AM »
Thanks Hawg. Knowing this all helps.
If it's true to form, width length ect... then It gives me a good guideline
base to go off from.

Offline Joe S.

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2024, 03:26:12 AM »
The hawken shop woulda built anything a person wanted,cash in hand that walked thru the door. There was left handed locks, they woulda built you one. There's no flintlock hawken rifles in existence yet everything points to them being built.

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2024, 03:47:04 AM »
Exactly my point as well. The obvious that what was used at the time Jacob Hawken was building rifles before Samuel came on board.
That the percussion cap wasn't even invented until 1822 in England, so how long was it before it came to be in America on a regular commercial bases, let alone it becoming the standard ignition for a rifle would have taken some time as well.

As you stated, anyone walking through the door of a shop and laying down silver coin wanting something built to their specs was a very welcomed site, people were opportunists then, and had to be.
The Hawken Rifle its self was built on a want and need due to the ruggedness of the mountainman way of life.
General Ashley's Rifle, was just that.

Offline Daryl

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2024, 04:23:01 AM »
Flint, full stocked Hawken.






Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline redheart

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2024, 05:24:18 AM »
Exactly my point as well. The obvious that what was used at the time Jacob Hawken was building rifles before Samuel came on board.
That the percussion cap wasn't even invented until 1822 in England, so how long was it before it came to be in America on a regular commercial bases, let alone it becoming the standard ignition for a rifle would have taken some time as well.
As you stated, anyone walking through the door of a shop and laying down silver coin wanting something built to their specs was a very welcomed site, people were opportunists then, and had to be.
The Hawken Rifle its self was built on a want and need due to the ruggedness of the mountainman way of life.
General Ashley's Rifle, was just that.
[/quote



I understand what you're saying guys. I know lefty rifles exist, but just the same, show me a left handed Hawken. I could also picture Jake & Sam saying, "Here's what we have in the rack, either buy it or the guy standing behind you will and I don't much care which it is! Not everyone had Ashley's clout and even so his custom rifle was right handed! I love Daryl's Flint Hawken, but I have to point out that it's not an original.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 05:29:08 AM by redheart »

Offline Daryl

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2024, 08:40:53 AM »
I don't recall saying it was an original. ;)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Joe S.

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2024, 02:57:18 PM »






What appears to be one with the lock on the wrong side :o Yup I am lefthand impaired  ;) and can't take a proper picture to save myself.  ???

Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2024, 04:53:40 PM »
Exactly my point as well. The obvious that what was used at the time Jacob Hawken was building rifles before Samuel came on board.
That the percussion cap wasn't even invented until 1822 in England, so how long was it before it came to be in America on a regular commercial bases, let alone it becoming the standard ignition for a rifle would have taken some time as well.
As you stated, anyone walking through the door of a shop and laying down silver coin wanting something built to their specs was a very welcomed site, people were opportunists then, and had to be.
The Hawken Rifle its self was built on a want and need due to the ruggedness of the mountainman way of life.
General Ashley's Rifle, was just that.
[/quote

Redheart. Yes. Like any shop, you go into even today. You buy what's on the shelf. But if you laid the money down, they would also build you what you wanted. that's all that was being said. As far as ever seeing an original Left hand Hawken from what I'm reading as well, no one has seen one, but that's a bit more rare to the fact that folks say Jacob did not build a flint lock, or along that line of thought. But again Jacob was building rifles before Percussion caps were invented.
Original, Well I as well never stated that I was doing anything original, just that I was using the early Jacob Hawken model to go off for my build.
Rifles, products ect mere produced for inventory, for the majority of the people, who are right handed, again not saying that I guy couldn't ask for them to build what ever he would have wanted, might have taken some time, but it would have been done.

Original, only in this conversation relates to right handed. If Jacob built a flint lock, or a left handed flint lock, it would still be an Original Hawken rifle.



I understand what you're saying guys. I know lefty rifles exist, but just the same, show me a left handed Hawken. I could also picture Jake & Sam saying, "Here's what we have in the rack, either buy it or the guy standing behind you will and I don't much care which it is! Not everyone had Ashley's clout and even so his custom rifle was right handed! I love Daryl's Flint Hawken, but I have to point out that it's not an original.


Offline L.H. Smoke Pole

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Re: J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2024, 04:54:30 PM »
Flint, full stocked Hawken.







Beautiful Rifle