J.Hawken fullstock Rifle plans from Dixie Gun works

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

What appears to be one with the lock on the wrong side Yup I am lefthand impaired  and can't take a proper picture to save myself. 

Joe, sweet Rifle. Which lock did you use?. and what Caliber?.

[Joe S.]

58 cal. Modified L&R  lock, lot of filing to get the face flat,  didn't like the wafer thin fly either, to me, it seemed a bit un-safe. Made a thicker one,   made the adjustments to fit it, a good tuning, not to shabby of a lock now. The color case hardening was done by the folks at Wyoming armory, they are great folks to deal with and know their craft.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

58 cal. Modified L&R  lock, lot of filing to get the face flat,  didn't like the wafer thin fly either, to me, it seemed a bit un-safe. Made a thicker one,   made the adjustments to fit it, a good tuning, not to shabby of a lock now. The color case hardening was done by the folks at Wyoming armory, they are great folks to deal with and know their craft.

Nice what's the range you're getting from it?.
What is your barrel length?.

[Joe S.]

36" target wise,  does nicely out to 100,125 yrds. I've shot steel past that, Kentucky elevation though. Hunting wise, most deer are seen,shot 25,50 yrds. I would have no problems taking deer out to a 100yrds but haven't yet. Might want to post shooting questions,range,expectations in the black powder shooting forum, guys like Mr. Sapergia's brother Daryl and those fellas over there have way more knowledge than I.

[Joe S.]

36" barrel

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Nice Thanks for the info.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

redheart if you're still following this post, "I Get" your squirrel gun reference.
In todays mail cane the Dixie Gunworks plan.

This in no way is a Jacob Hawken Mountain Rifle.

But 2 thing have or can come of this.
1. DGW didn't end up charging me for it, the print must be pretty old and a bit tarnished.
2. I will make a Squirrel Rifle, lol

[Dphariss]

The photo would make a pretty good J&S Hawken of the Western Fur trade period, which was pretty much dead by 1840-42. The later massive even clubby Hawkens that follow are wagon train/army guild era rifles with few or no exceptions. The Bridger rifle is a 1850s most likely since in the early 50s he was making 150 a MONTH guiding the army and that was a LOT of money at the time. The earlier rifles, like you would find at a 1830s Rendezvous were not the same rifle. They were slimmer longer barreled, they did not have 7/16” loading rods. One of my favorites is a half stock that we are sure actually went to the mountains about 1834-36 and the small end of the rod is about 1/4”. And the barrel is 39 7/8” rapid taper to about the entry pipe and slightly swamped, 1 1/32” breech, 50 cal on a 1/2 stock. And the buttstock is much like the drawing here.
If you get the right barrel/breech/buttplate/lock you really don’t need dimensions just a good drawing of about any size, that you can use to shape it right. Its possible to enlarge photos to get the proper drop and pull length using the lock length or BP height to get a dimension to use to determine the various dimensions.

[Dphariss]

The hawken shop woulda built anything a person wanted,cash in hand that walked thru the door. There was left handed locks, they woulda built you one. There's no flintlock hawken rifles in existence yet everything points to them being built.

But there is. It’s a S Hawken surely from the 1850s no less. But it was converted to percussion by screwing a drum into the flint “patent” breech vent, sawing off the water proof pan and putting on a percussion hammer. It makes the “no flintlock St Louis Hawken” people get a little foamy but when the lock is pulled its obvious since the fence is still on the plate. The standing breech and the breech itself are obviously flint.  Its in the Smithsonian. There was a photo spread of this rifle, with the lock removed and photoed, in the Buckskin Report. John Baird ran it because people were essentially lying about the rifle to make it fit the “no flintlock Hawken” narrative they had locked into and would not change….

[rich pierce]

The hawken shop woulda built anything a person wanted,cash in hand that walked thru the door. There was left handed locks, they woulda built you one. There's no flintlock hawken rifles in existence yet everything points to them being built.

This is a common assertion, across the board, from Andreas Albrecht to JP Gemmer, that shops were making whatever any customer wanted.
Assumptions: 1) They were keeping up with orders, and had time and capacity to spare. 2) A significant amount of their work was single guns for individuals and they were used to being flexible. 3) They didn’t care about having a style or brand at all. Whatever the customer wanted. 4) They could obtain all the quality parts needed easily and readily.

Where’s the data supporting this axiom? Do we see Oerter signed rifles looking like Lancaster rifles? No, in fact every one follows a single profile pretty closely. No patchboxes outside wooden ones and brass ones of Oerter’s designs.  Do we see signed Dickerts looking like Reading rifles? Signed Becks looking like Lehighs? No. Do we see signed Hawken rifles styled like NY rifles with the perch belly and funky inlays? No. Shops had styles of guns they made, many of which are distinctive, though varying over time.

Might the Hawken brothers have built a wealthy customer a left handed Hawken rifle? Could be, if they could source a breech within a year.

[Dphariss]

The hawken shop woulda built anything a person wanted,cash in hand that walked thru the door. There was left handed locks, they woulda built you one. There's no flintlock hawken rifles in existence yet everything points to them being built.

This is a common assertion, across the board, from Andreas Albrecht to JP Gemmer, that shops were making whatever any customer wanted.
Assumptions: 1) They were keeping up with orders, and had time and capacity to spare. 2) A significant amount of their work was single guns for individuals and they were used to being flexible. 3) They didn’t care about having a style or brand at all. Whatever the customer wanted. 4) They could obtain all the quality parts needed easily and readily.

Where’s the data supporting this axiom? Do we see Oerter signed rifles looking like Lancaster rifles? No, in fact every one follows a single profile pretty closely. No patchboxes outside wooden ones and brass ones of Oerter’s designs.  Do we see signed Dickerts looking like Reading rifles? Signed Becks looking like Lehighs? No. Do we see signed Hawken rifles styled like NY rifles with the perch belly and funky inlays? No. Shops had styles of guns they made, many of which are distinctive, though varying over time.

Might the Hawken brothers have built a wealthy customer a left handed Hawken rifle? Could be, if they could source a breech within a year.

I agree. For the most part.  Gunsmiths WOULD take orders for stuff but they would be stocked within certain limitations as you point out.
There is a long heavy percussion “Kentucky” in the Cody Firearms Museum its not what you would think of as a St Louis Hawken (this is not the spuriously marked heavy  fullstock that has been converted from flint). But its marked S Hawken and it has a “clue” that is identical to that on the S Hawken full stock “Mountain Rifle” that was in the same case telling me they were both stocked by the same hand. And we had them out of the case for examination.. Then we have the local trade “squirrel” rifles that are not “Mountain Rifles”. But the locals had no need for a expensive rifle with all be “bells and whistles” that made the rifle a better bet for work in the far West. We have the Mountain Rifle with SS triggers, DST, single triggers.  But they all fit that pattern once it was established sometime in the early 1830s. But there are brass mounted Mountain Rifles, Buttplate, TG, key escutcheons  all brass.  But the Hawken shop was not in some town in the East. It was literally the gateway to the West. From California to Vancouver. And things were changing at a rapid rate. Unlike the world that JP Beck worked in.  So we can say that the Hawken shop was making local trade rifles, full stock Kentuckies, full stocked and 1/2 stocked Mountain Rifles. The latter from the lock forward is basically a circa 1800 British 1/2 stocked sporting rifle and these often had scroll guards.
I don’t think a left handed rifle would have been a huge problem. Dunno what sources of supply they had in St Louis but I bet that they could order such things from Tryon perhaps. But airmail was not available but then people were not used to instant gratification at the time either.

[L.H. Smoke Pole]

Hey folks, I'm not here to be upset, nor am I.
Also I never stated that I was going to make anything original
that's not me.

I'm just gathering information to make a determination on what I want to implement or not in my build.
People talking about what went on 204 years ago is mere speculation I think on everyone's part.
My statement that the Hawken Bro's, or any business man would build anyone, any thing they wanted, providing
the parts existed, or could be made, holds true today, business is business.
Wasn't any different back then...again, within reason.

[HighUintas]

Hi SmokePole, how's this project going?

It is interesting you're researching and wanting to build a J Hawken rifle, at least I think that's what I'm taking away from your posts.

I just ran across a post on another forum a couple days ago, talking about J Hawken rifles and how they are different from J S Hawken rifles. He posted the picture below, which came from an old Hawken Shop brochure a long time ago. I didn't know that there were any St Louis J Hawken rifles in existence. This is pretty interesting. If you wouldn't mind, can you list what resources you've been reading/researching on J Hawkens? I'd like to learn more.






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[smylee grouch]

Curious how some think there are no Hawken flintlock rifles in existence ? I,m assuming because they have been told that because there are no pictures of one that they have seen. There are probably all manor of guns out there that have not been photoed or otherwise documented. JMHO

[Bob Roller]

I examined 2 full stock real Hawken rifles while visiting Tom Dawson at his home in Western Indiana.They belonged to a man in Nebraska as I recall.To me they were moderately heavy and had a Hawken trigger guard and the long bar triggers.The triggers themselves seemed to be transplanted from an ordinary set trigger that can work set or unset.The locks were typical types seen on many American guns with usable parts and only full cock was there.Overall workmanship was good but not up to the guns from the American North eastern makers.
In years now long gone I was busy with cap locks for these guns but only by request did I make a lock with a "full cock only" tumbler and the last complete one I made was a "full cocked only" and went to California.Bob Woodfill's Hawken book gives me too much credit for the revival of these rifles and I did make locks and triggers but so did Ron Long and others.I furnished no research of any kind.John Baird and Tom Dawson did that and THEY lit the fuse that still smolders today.That was I think in 1967 when I met both of them by chance at Bill Large;s barrel shop 57 years go.These rifles are of historical interest for sure but do not represent the fine workmanship seen in recent representations by current builders.
Bob Roller
   

[whetrock]

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Fine looking rifle in this photo. .36  44"  orig in flint
Might could even shoot a squirrel with one like this.

[Snakeman]

Flint, full stocked Hawken.

I love that full stawken

[Bob Roller]

Hawken styling and good looking.The 36 caliber gun may have been built using a LOCK converted to percussion.I made ONE S.Hawken
"replica" and that was it.The first "Hawken"matches at Friendship were in 1968(I think).I shot mine in the 1972 match.The winner of that match shot a 45 caliber common long rifle and It did not fit the format at all but the score stood anyway.I made a few Ketland locks for the "Flint Hawken"but they were SEVENTY FIVE dollars and that was not acceptable.Most of them went to Helmut Mohr and a Swiss woman who was equipping a female ski team using what Helmut called the Schweizer Feldstutzer of 18?and whatever.It was what we'd call a carbine,

Bob Roller

[whetrock]

Hawken styling and good looking.The 36 caliber gun may have been built using a LOCK converted to percussion. ...
Bob Roller

That's a good point, Bob. Wish we could see that rifle.

[HighUintas]

I emailed the current Hawken Shop about it to see if they happen to have more information. I wasn't able to call at the time. Maybe I'll call tomorrow.

[Steeltrap]

Hawken's (to me) always appear to be much bulkier than other designs. But that one looks slim and very, very nice.

Congrats on a fine looking build!

[Bob Roller]

Hawken styling and good looking.The 36 caliber gun may have been built using a LOCK converted to percussion. ...
Bob Roller

That's a good point, Bob. Wish we could see that rifle.

Many years ago I made up a special order on a Twigg (not the Davis version) plate that looked like a conversion plus a flintlock on that parts group that would interchange.This was in the mid 1960's.My feeble mind just remembered this odd request and the man who got it was Harold Hess who is now long deceased.
Bob Roller

[reddogge]

I believe this one is an original. I fished it out of my files.



This one is definitely an original, pulled out of a river. I don't know how much you can glean from it.

[rich pierce]

I believe this one is an original. I fished it out of my files.



This one is definitely an original, pulled out of a river. I don't know how much you can glean from it.

Are these stamped J Hawken?

[HighUintas]

I believe this one is an original. I fished it out of my files.



This one is definitely an original, pulled out of a river. I don't know how much you can glean from it.

Are these stamped J Hawken?

Rich, the bottom was was posted by a guy on MLF. This is what he said when I asked for more info


"SURE WISH I DID...GEBBERS KNEW THE GUY THAT FOUND IT...DAN PASSED AWAY AND TOOK THE INFO WITH HIM....WHEN I HELD THE GUN IT LOOKED LIKE A TYPICAL HAWKEN FULL STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE PA6TCH BOX AND HEAVIER BUCHORN SIGHT....COULDNT TELL BUT BET IT WAS A J. S. .....FRED FELLOWS"

So, it's not a verified Hawken because he didn't mention a visible stamp. But it looks like one!