50 cal and moose

[olgreenhead]

Anyone ever shot a moose with a 50 cal on here what was your load?In pow der not the moose loaded on your back

[Daryl]

I haven't used a .50 for moose, however a local guy did, using, I think, 120gr. 2F. The moose dropped in his tracks, which is not normal.  He was double lunged.  You do not want to hit any bone in a moose with a .50 or .54 for that matter, however I'd expect either to punch through an on side rib and still double lung the moose. The ribs can be up to 1/2" thick, are rubbery and move when something hits them - they aren't ridgid.

I was about 800 yards away, when a guy shot a moose at a lasered 170 yards with a .54, .535" ball and 100gr. Pyrodex.  The ball double lunged the moose (centred the heart as well) and came to rest against the hide on the off side. The moose ran like it was stung bya  wasp, but dropped dead in 40 yards, mid stride.

Note that when shooting small bores, less than 20 bore, moose will usually give no sign of being hit by a round ball, or slug from the same gun. Note that slugs from 48" or slower twists do not normally travel in a straight line inside a moose, therefore your lung shot might actually be a gut shot or flesh wound as the slug usually turns on impact.  Either way, ball or slug, the moose will usually take off as if scalded.  There will be no blood as the tissues cover the small slit in the hide.  there may be cut off hairs on the ground or snow. 

If they run out of sight, same goes for deer, you have to give them time to sicken, lay down and stiffen up. 20 to 40 min is usually OK- but not always. If hit behind the diaphram, double those times - at least.  Elk can run 10 times farther before stopping, even if not pressed, but moose are babies and usually lie down within 50 yards if not pushed. (pressed or pushed-same deal)

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

My late friend Wilf Krupp shot a bull moose with his .50 cal flinter.  He used 70 grains and a tightly patched ball.  The bull was broadside at 70 yds.  He shot him through both lungs and the animal collapsed where he stood, as if you switched off the lights.  I have that ball, and carry it in my medicine bag. 
Bottom line, shot placement is far more important than power.  forget about all you think you know about modern ballistics when thinking about muzzle loading rifles.

[Daryl]

  Forget about all you think you know about modern ballistics when thinking about muzzle loading rifles.

What Taylor means here (probably) is forget about foot pounds of energy, ie: fpe.  Fpe does not kill, has nothing to do with killing and is about the poorest 'form' of trying to attach any 'formula to the killing power to a projectile. The trouble is, people seem impressed with big numbers & fpe gives big numbers to high velocity projectiles.  Doing enough damage to the organs is what kills and in black powder weapons, the round ball does exactly what is required.

As far as Wilf's squib load, you don't need more powder to make it hit harder, but you need more powder to make it hit easier. With Wilf's load zero'd at 50 yards, the ball drops almost 8" to hit at 100. If that animal is 120 yards away, an error in judgment of only another 20 yards, the ball hits 13" low.  If it was driven at 2,000fps with 110gr. of powder, it would have struck les than 3" low at 100, and 5 3/4" low at 120.  In one instance you've killed moose and in the other, you've wounded it with a hit too low, or missed - or - heavy leg bone at the elbow and stopped, where the leg bends back over the lower lungs.

[olgreenhead]

well i got me a idea if i can get me  a moose tag in the next year to come but i gots to find me second person

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...to help pack, right?

[TinStar]

Interesting thread. Reminds me of what Clint Eastwod said in one of his Dirty Harry movies, "A man just has to know his limitations."
When I hear a lot of hunters talk about centerfires and whiz-bang calibers that can "reach out" I usually chuckle. They have been looking at too many ballistics charts and threw real life out the window. An aquaintance told me he missed two bucks this year; one at about 150 yds. and the other app. 125.; both with a .270. He couldn't understand why but thought he had deflected on brush although he couldn't see any through his scope at nine power.  Well they likely "blurred" out.  Would have been better of with a lesser rifle and lower power scope or no scope. It all comes down to an adequate caliber at the proper distance; put in the kill zone and at a range that is within your limitations. Killed a good number of bucks at close range with .50 rpb and none went far at all. With my eyes at my age I look for 75 yds. or less; preferably less. I'd rather be certain than "iffy".

TinStar
Soli Deo Gloria!

[olgreenhead]

well tin you some hunters just dont know what they are doing even with high tech stuff

[bob in the woods]

I like to hunt moose, and my family likes to eat moose, so I get lots of encouragement. Around here, most hunters ; even the cartridge rifle ones ; have different rifles for deer and moose.  The .50 cal is the most common for deer in these parts, but our gang have a mix of .54 to .62 rifles for moose.  I use either my
.62 flint rifle, or my current favorite Chambers 10 bore New England fowler.  I'm sure that a .50 cal will kill a moose, however, in real life, getting a perfect broad side shot isn't predictable .  Moose are "spongy" and the larger cal gets to where it's needed . My usual load for my .62 is a patched ball over 120 gr FFg.
It shoots very well in my rifle. My friend shoots 130 gr FFg in his .62  .  Either of these will do the job.
Moose hunting here is more of a " gang " hunt than deer. That is, we all like to get our own deer, but if our camp of 5 or 6 guys gets a moose, we are happy. If we get 2....we are real happy!  If an opportunity presents itself, I'd preferto have the larger cal. in my hands.
Look at this a a good reason to get/build a new rifle. 

[Daryl]

If it's a long pack, doing it with only one person to help is a long chore - Taylor and I have been there - too often. Like Brian said, after the shot's taken, it's time to work.

[hanshi]

My late friend Wilf Krupp shot a bull moose with his .50 cal flinter.  He used 70 grains and a tightly patched ball.  The bull was broadside at 70 yds.  He shot him through both lungs and the animal collapsed where he stood, as if you switched off the lights.  I have that ball, and carry it in my medicine bag. 
Bottom line, shot placement is far more important than power.  forget about all you think you know about modern ballistics when thinking about muzzle loading rifles.

Agreed!  Never killed a moose but on deer I've found the .54, .50 and even the .45 to be the equal of high velocity centerfires.  Put either in the right place and your freezer is full.  I never cease to be amazed at the game-lethal ability of the prb.

[northmn]

"Killing power or stopping power" have always held a fascination for me.  I studied the results of "stopping power" once from a gentleman who actually studied how pistols worked in real life situations.  I then put them on a computer, when I should have been doing something else, using multiple regression and found that the best fit graph was one in which the sub calibers like the 380, 32 or 38 specials were all about equally effective, and then there was an area where effectiveness started to increase and then another plateau where the real powerful ones leveled off.  I feel that that concept is likely applicable to big game hunting as well.  My 40+ years deer hunting including some party hunting has led me to believe that most centerfire big game rifles are in the top plateau of about equal effectiveness.  I shot a lot of deer with a 270 and feel that it was too much of a good thing as a misplaced shoulder shot pretty much ruined both shoulders.  I have shot a few deer lately with a 30-30 and cast bullets and am really happy with that performance.  Muzzle loaders fall into this power category also.  For moose, deer elk or whatever I think the bigbores like the 58 and up fall into the upper plateau area of effectiveness.  For deer I suspect the medium bores like the 50 are about as effective as anything.  My years of experience has kind of led me to be less impressed with "magnums" and more impressed with reasonable proven calibers and loads.  Over the years, I have seen a gradual increase in power recommendations from writers and younger shooters that borders on the ridiculous.  The 30-30 is over 100 years old and has killed piles of game by those that don't know any better.  To read most modern articles you would think you would need a 338 for about anything.  I find that if you want to really anchor an animal you can break the shoulders, which was an early method of aiming when muzzle loaders and less destructive calibers were used.  Shooting behind the shoulder is supposedly a recent technique.  On a very large animal like a moose it may be a good one.

DP

[Daryl]

I think if you're not packing shooting 400gr. of ball weight or over, and using WW or harder at that along with descent driving force (70gr. 3F need not apply), you should stay away from any major moose or elk bones.

[northmn]

For something that large, I would guess shoulder shooting may not be ideal.  I have been finding it is not as wasteful as some think using a velocity under 2000 fps and a lead missile.  Pistol shooters use hardcast, I have used cast bullets at about 1900 and ML rarely exceed 2000.  Bullets tend to stay together at these speeds and one does not get blood shot meat spread over a large area.  Actually that principle was discovered or used by the Germans in their development of an early 8mm Mauser military load.  Hydrostatic shock increases with velocity and the slower loads with heavy bullets in the 30-40 and 303 were not as effective as they just "punched through".   A 69 ball loaded to 1500 fps will not likely shatter into fragments like a highpower.  Neither will a 50 is shot behind the lungs.  My son shot a very large doe in the spine with a 303 handload and the bullet jacket was separated from the rest with no fragment being much over 20 grains if that.  Pure lead will flatten out like a coin, and a little hardening will prevent that.  Maybe even just the addition of tin, which remains totally malleable.  It seems after about 45 caliber, bullet expansion is not so important.  A 50 with WW or 1-20 tin may penetrate well even on rib bones.  One could up the load a bit also.  Mine shot at a little over 1900 with a load of 90 grains of 3f.  It would certainly hit a moose further away than might be reasonable with that caliber.  When all is said and done, breaking shoulders with a big bore would not be all that bad a way to get a big critter.  They have been doing it for years on dangerous game.

DP   

[Leatherbelly]

If you shoot a moose in the shoulder, be prepared to lose a LOT of meat.Especially with a high power. I never aim for the shoulder on meat. The lungs are a bigger target. Grizzlies are in moose country here and there is no commercially made rifle that is more comforting in griz country than the scoffed upon .338 Win. Mag. I don't take my muzzleloaders moose hunting for that reason. I don't have a phoebia of bears,any bears. I do respect them though and in their domain, I pack enough gun for them even if not hunting them. Moose are in this same domain. So, getting back to the post,"50 cal and moose", yep ,it'll kill a moose if a perfect shot presents itself, but generally speaking, it WON"T anchor him.JMHO, I don't think any muzzleloader will anchor a moose unless you waste a LOT of meat. Ask me how many moose I've anchored!

[Dphariss]

I think if you're not packing shooting 400gr. of ball weight or over, and using WW or harder at that along with descent driving force (70gr. 3F need not apply), you should stay away from any major moose or elk bones.

 The 1/2 ounce ball was used throughout NA with good success on all sorts of game in the Northwest gun. It works very well when used right. But one cannot take Texas heart shots with it.



I did not shoot this one (it was shot with a 338) but look at the size of the bones from this Alaska bull moose. 50-54 RB is not going to do much here, break it maybe but thats about it. Its why the old timers always looked for lung shots. You gotta make holes in something vital, very few critters can carry a 50-54 Rb far if it gets into the lungs.
Animals are very difficult to "anchor" short of striking or shocking spine or head shots so I consider "anchoring" the animal to be a moot point with a bullet at any other point.

Bottom line. Place your shot well. If you hunt in AK or some place with lots of moose and bear use at least a 62 caliber, better a 69 caliber rifle and a hard or soft RB depending on preference and the game being shot. At "bear problem" ranges a 69 is a pretty fearsome weapon, for one shot its as good as most typical breech loaders.
Soft lead will limit my 16 bore to about 30" of penetration, depending on the critter and the range.
I don't care for shoulder shots or breaking leg bones due to meat loss. I hunt to eat the critter and I hate bone fragments and torn up meat. Now if I were shooting a G bear I would shoot a hard ball and try to break the shoulder and shock the spine etc. But stopping here is the important point. Deer, elk etc KILLING is the important part if they run 50 yards who cares.

I hunt with a RB for several reasons. Its historically correct for ML rifles, it works very well if sized properly for the game and used within its range, it really has no vices and it is more of a challenge than shooting critters at long range.

Dan

[Daryl]

LB- we're not talking about high velocity rounds that destroy a lot of meat. Been that route myself.

  A 14 bore round ball does not destroy a lot of meat with a shoulder hit - I know this from experience of doing just that - shoulder shots.  I actually put 2 balls through the same leg on one bull, about 2" between the balls, I'd guess due to the 4" overall hole - there was no bloodshot, but due to the chips of bone and clotting lumps, I ended up losing about 2 ot 3 pounds of meat.  I've seen the .300 wonders destroy both front shoulders of a bull and hit no leg bones - one shot.

Our round balls are very kind to the meat - chuck one up to low velocties and large balls.

[Leatherbelly]

Why point of shoulder shots? I understand them on dangerous game for obvious reasons but for other big game I don't.

[northmn]

Some people may hunt in areas where anchoring the animal very quickly is helpful.  I ahve heard some that use veritable canons on deer because they have a limited acerage to hunt and could lose the animal if it went onto a neighboring property.  That may not exist hunting larger game, but circumstance could make a quick drop desirable.  As Daryl stated, the lower velocity bullets or ball do not destroy all that much.  I shot a deer this year with a cast bullet at about 1900 ane hit the shoulders.  I had about a 3-4 inch area to cut out but no real blood shot extremes around the wound and the bones did not stray that far.  Had I shot that same deer with my 270 I would have thrown away most of both from shoulders,  I make a lot of burger also.  In this instance the shoulder shot was not preferred as much as it was what was available in the brush.  One advantage of an accurate rifle in the brush is that sometimes you have to thread a needle between trees or branches to get a good hit.

DP 

[Lloyd]

I shot this moose with a .50 Caliber flintlock (the one in the picture). 

A friend shot a moose in Northern Alberta the year before and we discussed bullet performance quite a bit.  It was decided that I should run some test.  You figure that the hide on a bull moose is very close to 1/2 inch thick when it is on the animal.  Then in the kill zone, the ribs are about 3/8 inch of real resilient bone.  Behind that, you have at least a foot of internals before you penetrate the heart or lungs. 
Here is what I tested.  I loaded up with 110 Grains of FFg and a .390 pure lead round ball and shot it at 50 yards into a stack of red fir 2x6's...  The pure lead round ball only penetrated 3 of the 2X6's and lodged below ball depth in the 4th...  I thought that this wasn't enough penetration to take down a moose how I wanted to...  Having read a lot of Peter Capstick's and Robert Roark's stuff, I knew that in hunting dangerous game in Africa, they used hard bullets.  So, I cast up some new balls, .390 50/50 mix pure lead and wheelweight...  I tried again with the same 110 grains of FFg load.  This time, the ball penetrated 6 of the 2x6 blocks and kept going down my range... 
I then tried the accuracy and it affected it very little.

I tend to call in animals, rather than wander around and hope I find them...  So, I called this bull in.  I was hiding about 20 yards below where he came out of the woods.  When I shot him, he slowly crumpled and hit the ground.  I reloaded and shot him right behind the left ear to make sure.
When we dressed him, the ball had entered on his right side about 6 inches from the point of his chest and went through the hide, a rib, then through the heart, then hit a rib on the opposite side, ricochets upward and took out the outside of the left lung, hit the lower side of the backbone on the left side and lodged just under the hide on the upper right side of the backbone...  We found the larger chunk of the ball and a couple small pieces of lead when butchering it.
This wasn't a real small animal...  He looks smaller in the picture because he had fell with everything but his head downhill off the side of a logging landing. 
I shot him at 10 minutes after 8 in the morning...  We spent all day gutting, skinning and cutting him up into 7 chunks plus the head, that were small enough for 2 of us to pick up...  We finished up packing him a mile to the vehicles at 10:30 that night....  Finally got him home and got to bed about 2 am....

[Leatherbelly]

   Lloyd,
   Good post! Nice bull too.

[northmn]

Good post, great picture.  I have wondered about pushing pure lead too fast.  I hit a deer in the neck with my 50 percussion, 90 gr 3f, and did not have a pass through.  It broke the neck but I did not find an exit.  The ball at that speed may have flattened out like a 50 cent peice and quit penetrating.  Your idea of hardening the ball fits in somewhat with what I shoot in cast bullets, whcih I have shot 5 deer with now.  I use a very similar alloy at 1900 fps and have yet to find a bullet as they push through the deer after making a very nice hole.  Pure lead is very malleable, and has worked quite well but for a smaller caliber like your 50 on a bigger critter what you did makes sense.  As in the deer I shot, I ate venison and had no tracking as it dropped so fast it bounced, but heavy bones on a bigger animal like elk or moose

DP

[bob in the woods]

Lloyd, you meant to say a .490 ball, right??     

[Lloyd]

Yes sir, I meant .490....  Guess I better proof read better..

Thanks for spotting it...  The fingers don't always go where I tell them on the keyboard.  I guess you would call that a brain/finger disconnect

Lloyd

[pulaski]

As discussed a .50 cal. will kill a moose . Question you need to ask yourself . Will I have the time to invest in the ideal shot ? With unlimited time you can achieve the ideal shot , if time is limited then you may have to push the issue or accept a less than ideal shot and live with the results .
Only you can decide weather the time allowed is enough to accomplish the job the way you want .
Know an Inuit who hunts with a 22 hornet , shoots everything from Polar bear to Moose with it . As he stated "death has no time and I don't wear a watch ". He has tracked an animal 8 hours , only to  have a less than ideal shot present itself . Continued the quest the next day , after 3 more hours the ideal shot presented itself and he closed the deal .
YMMV
Thanks , Steve