Author Topic: Lock plat bolt location  (Read 923 times)

Offline Steeltrap

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Lock plat bolt location
« on: March 12, 2024, 03:53:25 PM »
I've inletted the lock plate and for this build I have fashioned a hook breech. (Hindsight I should have made the hook breech thinner....but....) So, as it's working out with the hook breech, and  using a smaller lock, I'm looking to drill\tap the lock plate for the bolts. And just a note, I cannot thin the existing hook breech as then the tang hook would no longer fit....plus location of the flash hole...and the cascading effect of all that.

In the first pic the actual distance from the edge of the hook breech to the corner of the bolster is .120. Now, I have room behind the bolster to locate the lock bolt (see pic 2) and I think this is where I'm going to locate it. The inlet is nice and smooth so it will support the lock plate very well. I will also have another bolt located at the (normal) front of the lock plate.

Now doing it that way requires drilling the hole through the hook breech just near the back edge, but I think this can be done without any issues. (I think?)

I just don't want to locate the lock bolts here in case I am not seeing any "future issues" this would cause. Such as the lock plate "bowing" when I tighten the front and center lock bolt. (I don't plan on using a gorilla arm to tighten this)

Any thoughts or input would be appreciated.




Offline rich pierce

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2024, 05:00:38 PM »
I wonder how that happened. Long breech plug threads? I prefer to have the bolt hole in the lock bolster and extend the bolster if needed by soldering in a piece of steel. Is the bolt going to clear the hook? If so and there are no other solutions, Iíd drill the hole with the barrel and breech out of the stock then drill the hole or file the notch in the standing breech outside the gun.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2024, 05:08:42 PM »
Better check and make sure that the lock bolt doesnít impede with the tumbler in the full cock position. I always prefer to put the lock bolt into the lock bolster.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2024, 06:20:37 PM »
Stoner has a good point. Iíve also seen a Hawken with the the lock secured to the standing breech with a countersunk bolt ÖÖ. On the lock side!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2024, 07:00:42 PM »
Just to mention that this build is not to a "normal" size. It's for a youth, or small framed person.

The depth of the breech plug is just over 1/2". The thickness of the hook tang is .350". The lock I'm installing is small. An L&R Manton which measures 4-3/4" x 7/8". And the barrel is 7/8".

So, when I aligned the FH, front to the web, and tail to center in the wrist the extra .350 of hook tang caused this. (Well, that and me not giving it enough thought)

I  will check the movement of the tumbler prior to doing any drilling.

I may be able to squeeze in a small diameter lock bolt just under the hook-tang and through the lower part of the hook tang.  I may be able to get a small diameter lock bolt as shown in the pic below to work without causing any "intregrity" issues to the hook tang.

Also, the caliber of this 7/8" barrel is 45. So I have some "meat" to work with if I need to put a notch in the breech of the barrel. Not a lot, but some.


« Last Edit: March 12, 2024, 07:04:11 PM by Steeltrap »

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2024, 08:13:54 PM »
WellÖ..after much thought and measuring, I think if I channel the barrel down a minimum of .050, and up to .100 max, my problem will be solved. At the existing set up I was going to have to drill the flash hole down at least .050 from center.

I do not have enough room to place the lock bolt off the bolster. If I drill it as it sits, Iím to low on the hook breech part and that will cause too little remaining metal for it to be strong enough.

By lowering the barrel a bit it also solves that problem. Time to break out the channel scraper!  At this point I donít have the stock shaped or the trigger in or the barrel pins so none of that is an issue.

I hope this makes sense to the reader ( what Iím saying)

Offline smart dog

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2024, 08:45:40 PM »
Hi,
You desperately need to make a drawing of your gun that positions all of those parts.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2024, 09:18:03 PM »
Dave is right, but the drawing should have been made before a chisel hit wood.
To correct your lock bolt issue, why not install a short machine screw through the standing breech's side wall , like the Baker rifle does.  So the little swcrew goes into the lock plate from the hammer side lays flush with the plate and screws into the standing breech.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2024, 09:59:13 PM »
Actually gent's I did draw the pattern on the stock before I proceeded. This pic shows the beginning of that as I added more details after I took this pic.

But, and it's a big but......it didn't occur to me to look at the location of the lock bolt for the bolster. I've built a few flintlocks and I apparently just assumed I'd have no issues with the bolster lock bolt.

Obviously.....I am.

I've scraped down the barrel channel about 50-thousands and I'm almost at the point where the bolster bolt will work well. I need to be very careful in the drill\location process or it will be a woeful mess to attempt to fix.

Taking down the barrel a little more won't have a noticeable effect on the profile of the rifle.

In addition, I will be able to drill my touch hole liner in a location of where it should be....and not have to lower it on the flat.


Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2024, 12:21:35 AM »
BTW and FWIW, I've done an extensive search to look for pics of how a Bakers rifle lock is installed. I'm a visual learner and I can't seem to find anything that would show a pic or video of this.

If you know of a link I'd really appreciate it.

Offline Josh Johnson

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2024, 03:53:28 AM »
I ran into a similar problem building a plains style flintlock. As Stoner Creek said, you have to drill through the lockplate bolster because full-cock will not be possible if you position the lock bolt to the rear of the bolster. Drilling thru the lock plate bolster will place the lock bolt thru the standing breech and thru the breech plug bolster (hook). On the lockplate bolster, you need to position the bolt hole as far back as possible without breaking thru rear edge of the bolster. That should give you enough room for the pan to be far enough in front of the breech plug face. Also, you will probably want to drill at angle, going down from lock side to sideplate side so you have some wood left around the bolt hole when it comes out that side (enough for a washer or sideplate). Take your time and measure 3 or 4 times before drilling, using center punches, centering drill etc, as there isn't much room for error. Good luck!










Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2024, 02:55:31 PM »
That's an interesting "hook" as with that much metal removed I would be concerned that it could easily be bent during a takedown.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2024, 03:11:48 PM »
I suggest you give some serious consideration to Taylor's suggestion.  It is an effective solution that is strong, uncomplicated and will not compromise the standing breech and hook.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2024, 03:24:15 PM by bluenoser »

Offline BJH

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2024, 03:22:38 PM »
Just to mention that this build is not to a "normal" size. It's for a youth, or small framed person.

The depth of the breech plug is just over 1/2". The thickness of the hook tang is .350". The lock I'm installing is small. An L&R Manton which measures 4-3/4" x 7/8". And the barrel is 7/8".

So, when I aligned the FH, front to the web, and tail to center in the wrist the extra .350 of hook tang caused this. (Well, that and me not giving it enough thought)

I  will check the movement of the tumbler prior to doing any drilling. 

I may be able to squeeze in a small diameter lock bolt just under the hook-tang and through the lower part of the hook tang.  I may be able to get a small diameter lock bolt as shown in the pic below to work without causing any "intregrity" issues to the hook tang.

Also, the caliber of this 7/8" barrel is 45. So I have some "meat" to work with if I need to put a notch in the breech of the barrel. Not a lot, but some.



As per your posted picture. Now that you have lowered your barrel channel, you may drill a clearance hole in the lock plate, counter sink or counter bore it for the lock bolt. With the barrel out of the standing breech drill and tap the wall of the standing breech for the lock bolt. The head of the lock bolt must not be behind the hammer obviously. With the lock cocked. The suggested order of operations. Layout center punch and tap drill through the lock plate spot drilling the standing breech. Remove lock and barrel finish tap drilling the standing breech. Return the lock and redrill the hole to clearance size in the lock. With the barrel removed. Tap the standing breech useing the lock plate to keep everything aligned. Counter bore the lock plate for a fillister head machine screw.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2024, 02:35:25 AM by Ky-Flinter »
BJH

Offline BJH

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2024, 03:29:09 PM »
Sorry my suggested course of action posted badly. My computer skills are sometimes a bit lacking. BJH


Moderator's note:  BJ, I think I have fixed your previous reply.  -Ron
« Last Edit: March 14, 2024, 02:36:36 AM by Ky-Flinter »
BJH

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2024, 03:43:16 PM »
I suggest you give some serious consideration to Taylor's suggestion.  It is an effective solution that is strong, uncomplicated and will not compromise the standing breech and hook.

Iíve searched for a picture or diagram of this type of setup, but canít find one. I believe I understand this, but a pic would go a long way in my understanding.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2024, 04:00:50 PM »
Sorry - can't provide a pic.  Perhaps Taylor can provide one.  BJH provided a good description.  In a nutshell, you are drilling through the bolster in the normal location and, at the same time, you are drilling 1/2 of the way through the standing breech - with the barrel removed.  Use the proper tap drill for an 8-32 or 10-32 screw.  Now, drill a clearance hole in the lock plate and tap the standing breech.  The only area where BJH and I differ is in choice of bolt head.  Where BJH suggests a filister head, I would go with a flat head and do an 82 degree countersink.  Flip the gun over and do the same for the side plate or, possibly, use a short wood screw.

Online Eric Krewson

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2024, 04:54:26 PM »
Another thing; you mentioned the possibility of deforming the lock plate when you tightened the lock bolts, the lock bolts aren't supposed to be torqued down, just a little snug.   

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2024, 07:35:21 PM »
Thanks gents ;D!  And yes, I donít tighten my lock bolts with an impact driver.

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2024, 12:48:17 AM »
Well gent's, once I "got into it" I decided to just drill out the breech "the regular way". I started with locating a hole on one side of the breech-tang. Even using a center drill the hole managed to walk on me.



So, I studied the previously posted hook-breech photos and decided I would file (elongate) the hole if needed. That's not a big deal as the bolt is simply holding the lock in place. I then, after much measuring, drilled the hole through the hook-breech. Now, before I did this I studied what the outcome would be. But I thought since the hook part takes the most abuse, the lower section just holds the barrel from going side to side. So I ended up with this:


Then I drilled the other side of the octagon and after some filing, the bolt goes through


Now, I haven't yet drilled the bolt hole through the side plate as I wanted to align where the bolt would be when I drill\tap the bolster. From this pic you may be able to see (bad pic angle) that the bolt needs to come forward maybe .030-.040 so that the bolster hole\tap will have enough metal around it to work properly. I'll do some filing on the hole(s) to make that work. The holes will be elongated but all they do is hold the lock in place. So I don't see that as a problem.


Edit: I haven't tried to remove the barrel with the lock bolt installed. I may have to reshape the hook-breech plug end similar to how Josh Johnson's has been filed. But since it's likely the lock will need to come off when cleaning occurs, I may just leave it as is.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2024, 01:22:26 PM by Steeltrap »

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2024, 03:52:34 PM »
I donít know why I didnít think of this before. Iím just going to use 6-32 lock bolts.

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2024, 04:46:45 PM »
Ok, so I've been hogging out the wood to allow the lock parts to work freely. Now, this is a very small lock with not a lot of clearance for the internals. The bolster rear is so close to the mainspring when at full cock, there was no way wood was going to be kept right behind the bolster.

In addition, I've been working on main spring clearance and the small piece of wood (see pic) that usually resides under th bolster and above the main spring is so small.....under .125", that I'm wondering why I'm messing with it.

The lock bolster will screw snuggly on the hook breech and there is zero space between the bolster and the barrel.

Anyone see any issues with just cleaning out that tiny sliver of wood?


Online Eric Krewson

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Re: Lock plat bolt location
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2024, 05:29:10 PM »
On my builds that little piece of wood is so thin I just cut it out of the way, no problems, I do a neat job so it looks like it was never there.

One thing to remember; I am a wood hack builder, not near and precise as some of the lock inlets the experts produce. The lock inlet in the picture isn't complete yet with spaces for the internals.