TRS Lock Photos

[Shawrco]

Good evening,
Since the TRS online catalog no longer has photos of their locks or castings does anyone happen to have a picture or two of TRS locks, specifically pictures of TRS #653 and/or #657 (front and back would be great!). I’m just getting started on a #653 (was sold to me as). My approach is going to be to true up the tumbler shank and fit to lock plate and use that as 0/0 to get the bridle/sear located, then the rest of the parts. The original that this lock was cast from had engraving on it and it appears all the screws (except frizzen and frizzen spring) go in blind holes. Mr Jesse told me the only shadow holes that may be off are the mainspring due to a different shrink rate of the spring steel compared to the 4140 on the lock plate. I will gladly accept any advice, suggestions, or experiences from anyone who has assembled one of these Paul Poser locks. Thanks in advance.
Joe B

[wogden]

Here are some pics of the lock assembled by The Rifle Shoppe(Don’t ask how long delivery took).  Also, Taylor Sapergia did a post on this site in Nov. 2007 with pictures of one of these rifles he assembled which included very helpful info on assembling the set triggers.  Best of luck with your build. 

[Scota4570]

I assembled one of the TRS baker locks.  I will do no more.

Start with the assumption that nothing is ready to go as supplied.  The tumbler and sear probably need to replaced and made from scratch.  Trust none of the cast indications of where holes go. 

Send the frizzen to Jess to be hardened.  I could not get mine to spark.   He has a way to make the alloy spark. 

Basically treat the castings as a head start that may, or may not, save time over maching the whole thing from scratch.  The castings are all undersized due to shrinkage from impression to wax to casting.  For instance the foot of the frizzen is a sloppy fit in the plate as received.  I cleaned up both surfaces and pinched the assembly in a vice to take out the slop.  Then I drilled for the screw.   

 I have a good lathe and milling machine.  I do this work as a 1950s machinist would approach it.  I can not imagine doing this without machine tools.  You will also need a reamer for the tumbler hole in the plate and some way to positively line up the tumbler and bridle.  Also good drill bits and good taps/dies. 

I had two identical TRS locks, one preassembled, one as a casting set.  The one I made from castings was far better than the one supplied as assembled.  That is based on fit, finish, tolerances and function. 

I have an old lathe and milling machine.  I can not imagine doing this without those tools.  You will also need a reamer for the tumbler hole in the plate and some way to positively line up the tumbler and bridle.  I know it has been done with a drill press and files.  I would not attempt that.  I guess individual expectations for fit and function would determine what is good enough. 

[Shawrco]

Here are some pics of the lock assembled by The Rifle Shoppe(Don’t ask how long delivery took).  Also, Taylor Sapergia did a post on this site in Nov. 2007 with pictures of one of these rifles he assembled which included very helpful info on assembling the set triggers.  Best of luck with your build.

Thank you Mr Ogden! I’ve learned a good deal just from seeing the lock assembled. I don’t think I have the screw for the bolster/pan section in my screw set, or is that something you added? I was also wondering about the other long lock plate screw; looks like there’s one in front too. I searched for Mr Sapergia’s posts on the subject but apparently we can only access back to 2008. Again, thanks for posting the photos, very helpful.
Joe B

[Shawrco]

I assembled one of the TRS baker locks.  I will do no more.

Thanks for the comments @Scota4570. I was definitely expecting this project to be a challenge. You have provided some great insight and areas of caution to be aware of. Even though the castings are undersized I see proof that they can be assembled into a nice looking and hopefully functional lock. I do have a lathe, but only a round column Jet mill/drill for machines but that’s a help. I’m looking forward to getting started on the project.
Joe B

[Eric Kettenburg]

Nice lock!

The simple stuff imho assemble and work very well - the big ones, like the early doglocks.

The later locks are much more difficult to deal with because the internals are of course a lot finer and more detailed, and the castings don't translate nearly as well.

At the very least, they're worth it for the large external components i.e. plate, cock, frizzen etc.

There's a lot to be said about using a set of TRS external components for proper appearance and substituting a set of more easily available - Chambers, Davis etc - internals if possible, because (1) much less clean up work and (2) easy replacement availability if there is a probem or failure.

[Scota4570]

My lathe is a WW2 Southbend heavy 10.  Getting a full set of collets was an epiphany.  By choosing to make things sized to grab in  a collet I found the quality of my work improved and went faster.   For instance tumblers are now sized for standard reamers and collets. 

And, collets are safer to work around than a chuck.  Chucks have jaws that bash knuckles and  drive file tangs in to my palm.   

Anyway, making the tumbler a close fit in a reamed hole in the plate makes the lock work much better.  Aligning the tumbler bearing and bridle perfectly is a good idea too. 

I do not agree with having an as cast tumbler ride in a hole made with a twist bit.  That seem to be how it is done to often. 

[Bob Roller]

I made 2 matched pairs of Manton locks from TRS castings and wouldn't consider the cast mechanisms and main and sear springs,The frizzen springs were usable.I have used a good many sets of external parts from L&R and my mechanisms and I use no cast internal parts
from any locks.A lathe and milling machine are the back bone of lock MAKING as opposed to assembling from cast parts.I am convinced that really good parts CAN BE CAST but moulds that are needed may be cost prohibitive.Chet Shoults had all his flint lock parts cast and they were produced by injecting wax under very high pressure into milled,polished aluminum molds that cost $5000 in the early 1950's.It was financed by an Ohio Lawyer who had a strong interest in new muzzle loaders being made.The finished locks were priced at $25-$35 and a
polished one was $50 and the polish was really good.In the 1950's there was griping about these prices.The Shoults locks were the first to be offered to shooters and the caplock was king.Locally only ONE man,Toby Brown shot a flintlock and it had a Ketland lock and was marked
on the plate.If a lock mechanism is to be bench crafted,the materials must be selected and the ability to use them has to be acquired before starting the job.Making reliable springs is a separate skill set entirely.

Bob Roller
 

[Shawrco]

Thanks for the photos and feedback. Glad to see an assembled lock for many reasons. I know it will be challenging but also a confidence builder. Already have some parts in the shopping cart at TOW.

[Shawrco]

Thought I post a couple of photos of the progress I've made on the TRS Lock #653 casting set I purchased.  I'm about ready to drill the holes for the tumbler through lock plate and bridle.  My lathe is not up and running yet so a friend is going to help me w/that operation - turning the shanks on the tumbler to true them up, drilling/reaming the holes in the plate, bridle/sear, drilling/taping the hole for the cock screw, etc.  I've made a few rookie mistakes as evidenced by holes showing on the front of the lock that were supposed to be blind holes, located the pan screw a little too high, overly aggressive with the file in a couple of spots so having to get a replacement frizzen and frizzen spring.  Having a hard time getting the frizzen to pan surfaces to mate without a gap.  Anyway, thanks to Warren, who provided photos, and others who commented on lock assembly.  Next challenge is to get the sear/sear notch engagement right and temper the springs and get the internals hardened.  It's been a good project and great learning experience.  Hopefully this lock will make sparks one day!

As an aside, I was successful in contacting TRS by phone, they had the two parts I needed in stock and they were shipped on Thursday, even though the TRS voicemail says they are closed for shipping on Friday!  So, just wanted to put in a positive comment for TRS b/c I know they get a lot of negative customer service publicity...
 

[Bob Roller]

As I recall the 4 Mantons I made,the tumblers had an arm for a link to connect the mainsprings and the link was way too flimsy for the mainsprings I made so custom mechanisms were the only option.I made these for a man in Tennessee and he stored them in a closet and
after he passed away several years later they were found and sold.Using antique locks as mould masters will guarantee of undersize parts and that includes lock plates that were almost too thin.I may have used 3x56 screws but don't remember after all these years.Maybe 4x48
was used.These parts were sent from TRS at the request of the owner.
Bob Roller   

[Shawrco]

Bob,
The mainspring touch point on this tumbler should be good, but you are correct - the lock plate is thin... most blind screw holes have only 4-5 threads.  Fortunately there's not a lot of tension on them.

[Bob Roller]

Bob,
The mainspring touch point on this tumbler should be good, but you are correct - the lock plate is thin... most blind screw holes have only 4-5 threads.  Fortunately there's not a lot of tension on them.

That is a different mechanism than the Mantons linked tumblers.I stopped making the slip and slide tumblers and mainsprings in 1970.
The best external parts I used were from L&R.They were and are the best for a custom mechanism and before they came along,the Chet Shoults small Ketland but more work was involved in preparing them.The Cochran was a spin off from the Shoults and available in left hand configuration which was a welcome addition.Most of my L&R based flintlocks went to  Germany using their Manton externals for pistols and the that started in 1978 until 2019 when I stopped lock making.
Bob Roller