L&R problem

[Semiringeye]

Well I’m back with a different problem with my L&R lock.I was on here a while back with a lock that kept stopping at half cock.I gave to a friend in our club to see what he could do.the triggers were too far back and he moved them and we thought it was fixed.I brought it home and worked it about three times and then it messed up again.It took the lock out and fooled with it some and found if it tilted to the right it worked but if I tilted it to the left the fly road  up and stopped the tumbler at half cock every time.I ordered a new tumbler and fly now if I tighten the bridle screws down the tumbler and sear can’t move and I can take out the fly with a small pair of needle nose pliers.I’m at a loss.I’m calling L&R and see what’s up or buy a Chambers.Anyideas as to how I can fix it?I don’t know what happened .I’ve heard good and bad about L&R locks and thought I had a good one.

[Gtrubicon]

I am interested to see the responses to this. I have an L&R Durs Egg Flintlock that does the same thing.

[Steeltrap]

I've currently been dealing with my L&R Manton lock. It's small and the components are very compact.

What it sounds like to me is you have possibly bent the Bridle. If you take the Bridle and put it against a square, the angle should be 90 degrees. Also, if you measure (dial calipers) the distance from the bridle to the lock plate at the top, you should (within a few thousands) have the same distance at the bottom of the bridle to the lock plate.

If that's so, the "fix" is to use a brass punch (flat face on the punch), set the bridle on a hard flat surface and give it a few easy taps. The bridle's are soft metal so you don't need a lot of force to square one up.

When you have the bridle screwed into the lock plate, it should look (and be) parallel to the lock plate. Also, the bridle hole should be centered with the lock plate hole or the tumbler and the lock will be cocked. You should have the same space all around both the tumbler and the cock when installed.

If the bridle isn't parallel with the lock plate once you have it at 90 degrees, then you need to look at the top screw hole to see if you have damaged it. Perhaps you cross-threaded it when installing the screw. (Ask me how I know this)

[smylee grouch]

When you say you can tilt it , what does that mean?

[okawbow]

Could be too much slop between the bridle and the sear. I had to make a tiny brass shim to keep the sear tighter against the lock plate so the sear would catch on the fly every time. The L&R fly on my Bedford lock is tiny and thin and can miss the nose of the sear and cause the lock to catch at half cock.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You should be able to bottom the three screws of the bridle/sear, and still have the tumbler able to rotate freely.  If the tumbler jams when the screws are hard down, you must remove metal from the INSIDE surface of the bridle to allow for some clearance.  A few strokes with a lathe file will make a lot of difference.
If the sear screw forces the bridle down onto the sear preventing it to rotate freely, it is because the threaded section on that screw is cut too far up the screw.  You can help by placing the screw into the jaws of a drill press, or even an electric hand drill held in a vise, and with a safe sided mill bastard file, remove some of the metal from the screw head's inside face - made the threaded journal a  little longer.  This will allow the screw to stop on the ends of the threads against the plate, while reducing the contact of the bridle against the sear.
Tuning locks to make them function better, takes an inquisitive and patient mind, to determine what the problem is, and how to remedy it.
There is no way you should be able to remove the fly without removing the bridle.  If there is that much slop in your lock's guts, you have quite a few issues to overcome.

[Bob Roller]

These locks use a "fly"with a hole that fits over a pin in the tumbler (I think) and the hole may be too big and allow the "fly" to be pushed up and causing the lock to stall at half cock.I don't know what kind of clearances these locks have on moving parts so I may be off by a mile.
Bob Roller

[Gtrubicon]

These locks use a "fly"with a hole that fits over a pin in the tumbler (I think) and the hole may be too big and allow the "fly" to be pushed up and causing the lock to stall at half cock.I don't know what kind of clearances these locks have on moving parts so I may be off by a mile.
Bob Roller

What you described is part of what my problem is, you can lift the fly nearly 45 degrees up while still on the pin.

[Dphariss]

Unless the buyer has a very good understanding and the ability to fix or knows someone who does one must be very careful about some makers locks. One might even need a welder.

[alacran]

I have found that the best thing to do when you have problems with an L&R lock, is call them up. They will,tell you to send it back. They will fix it and get it back within a week.

[Semiringeye]

I called L&R this morning and they told me the new tumbler have the fly on the bridle side of the tumbler unlike the old version with the fly next to the lock plate .Also it takes a new style bridle to fit and keep the fly in.I sent it to them and they said they would take care me and they also are going to post this upgrade news on different forums. Ill keep ya’ll updated.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Thats good info Semiringeye - thanks. To comment on your original question is now moot but I will attach two picture of an older L&R Manton lock that I just cleaned up just for reference to others. There are only two 6-40 screws in the bridle not three. That fly is very "fiddly" to get into correct position. I also find that the stirrup has to be installed correctly or the tumbler arm can be broken. I also find that the bridle screw can be tightened too much causing the tumbler to bind. I make new sear screws that are not threaded more than necessary to hold the sear in place but does not bind the tumbler when tightened down.

[Jim Kibler]

Looks a little wonky.  Wonder if they use hand drills?

[P.W.Berkuta]

This is how the majority of the locks were assembled - quickly. It is also why the screws were left loose so that the locks would move freely. Very few were assembled with care.

[Jim Kibler]

We assemble locks quickly as well.  Quick can be good or bad.  How this is thought to be okay, not only by the manufacturer, but also many customers as well blows my mind.

Jim

[Bob Roller]

Precise parts and knowing the function of every one applies to locks,trigger,engines with one or sixteen cylinders and anything with more than one moving part .
Bob Roller

[P.W.Berkuta]

We assemble locks quickly as well.  Quick can be good or bad.  How this is thought to be okay, not only by the manufacturer, but also many customers as well blows my mind.

Jim

Jim, I have two of your rifles (one early made Colonial and one Woodsrunner) and find them to be of the utmost quality and a great value for any skill level. I started building muzzleloaders in the late 60's and at that time you would be hard pressed to get any quality assembled lock or kit.

[recurve]

I put the above L&R lock in and found it increased the trigger pull I sent it to Brad at cabin creek (as I do all my siler locks ) well he was able to "fix" it ,but do to the time it took(his labor ) the bill was 3  :oas much as a siler tune up I'll stick to siler

[P.W.Berkuta]

This is how the majority of the locks were assembled - quickly. It is also why the screws were left loose so that the locks would move freely. Very few were assembled with care.

This L&R loch has a bunch of issues and one is that the cock does not fit down completely on the tumbler shaft. This allows the tumbler to tilt away from the plate and this allows the fly to come away from the tumbler's fly retaining pin. I had to lower the tumbler square so that the cock will sit closer to the lock plate and reduce the tumblers tendency to wobble and lift away from the lock plate and allow the fly to fall away from the tumbler.

[Jim Kibler]

The cock shouldn’t contain the tumbler movement.  This is the job of the bridle.  If the bridle and tumbler are messed up, I can see this as sort of a fix.

[Bob Roller]

Chet Shoults who I think was the first to make a new FLINTLOCK for the few that were then interested used moulds that cost $5000 in the 1950's and at that time a $50 a week take home pay check was good money.As I mentioned earlier,a lawyer financed this lock and the parts were fine as cast.I think the mainspring and sear spring were forged and filed but the frizzen spring was not.The lock was a small Ketland and after Chest lost control of the moulds the lock was then in the public domain.I made a lot of them and copied the early style tumbler but made a bridle with two screws at the top.After a while I made a tumbler with a linked mainspring and have used that design in the Shoults,Maslin and a round tail Twigg plus the L&R small Manton and a similar one in the Late English and Durs Egg locks.I think that a lot of
L&R's problems are the moulds and maybe an indifferent foundry.The Shoults moulds were milled and polished cavity and Chet told me the waxes were injected under very high pressure.That would account for the good quality tumblers,sears and bridles seen in his locks years ago.Another thing might be that when L&R started offering locks they had to meet a price that all but guaranteed a substandard lock because the American gun maker/hobbyist seemed to insist on fine wood,brass or silver hardware,good barrels and the very cheapest locks available.The critical part that made it a useful gun had the be cheeeeep.In the late 1970's I connected with the black powder shooters in Germany and almost all of my locks and triggers went to them until 2019 when I started having lower back spasms,stenosis and decided to quit shop work entirely.I had some repairs done to the shop and checked for roof leaks,none seen but now I have no real interest or desire to make anything.I do sincerely hope L&R can get a better handle on quality control and stay around.The do have a good line up of locks.
Bob Roller

[P.W.Berkuta]

Jim - I understand what you are saying and that is not the case here. The bridle and plate are not parallel to each other. The cock rest above the lock plate by about 0.040" - 0.050" when the cock is installed, and the tumbler square shank does not fully enter the cock's square hole. The cocks shoulder stop just barely contacts the top of the lock plate. There is enough axial play to allow the fly to escape its pivot pin and jam up the lock or make it work erratically. This is an old lock with much wear in the plate hole for the tumbler. Care was not taken when it was first assembled many moons ago. A case of poor workmanship with poor internal cast parts.

Bob - good info - I like the L&R Manton and Twigg locks. Some are good and some are not so good. The lock I show here is on a used rifle that I acquired recently, and I found after cleaning it that there were issues with it and needed to be addressed before I could give it to one of my grandkids. Nice rifle -- but --- .

[Semiringeye]

This is an update on my problem with my durs egg lock.Isent it back to L&R and they replaced the bridle with a new version and sent it back. I have shot it about 50 times and had no problem and I can operate it from any position left ,right even upside down and no malfunction.

[Steeltrap]

I sent my Manton lock back after I screwed in a 6-32 lock bolt into a 6-40 thread hole. I considered fixing it myself but then common sense kicked in.

When I got it back they put a new frizzen on it (At my request) as the original one was not aligned. On the original frizzen I had ground away that pan lug, but this frizzen is very hard and I just didn't have the desire to take it off. At least for now.

But it's all shined up and ready to go. It functions very well, sparks well and flints appear to be holding up well.