Leather or Lead

[northmn]

I imagine this has been beat around before, but I have used both lead and leather to hold my flints in the jaws and have found lead to work better.  Some claim that the no-give of lead can do horrible things like lead to breakage of lock parts.  Another claimed that the no-give may give better sparks.  I do not know about better sparking but lead can hold in some of the more strangely shaped knapped flints one encounters more securely.  I just flatten a round ball with a hammer to get the sheeting.
Never had anything break because of it either.

DP

[hanshi]

Me neither, but I ended up just sticking with leather for some reason.

[Scott Bumpus]

with lead i have had the flint work loose after several shots. with leather the flint stays tight unitll time to replace it.

[Daryl]

I've used both- have lead sheet and leather sheet in my equipment bag - either /or.  Some locks are hard on flints with a lead wrap, due perhaps to the extra weight - inertia, or due to the non-give of the material.  Seems to me, there was less frizzen damage with the lead, as there wasn't a rebound cushion of the flint.  It is held harder in the jaws, so less 'bounce' perhaps.

[Karl Kunkel]

I had always been told that the lead flint wrap was used with military muskets and their large locks.  The weight of the lead adds to the force of the flint striking the frizzen and the cock when it stops. On the smaller locks used on rifles this could eventually cause damage.  Please correct me if I got this wrong.

[LynnC]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember Jim Chambers posting that the lead flint wrap was no no in his locks - perhaps he'll post again

Leather works fine for me.......Merry Christmas Folks

[northmn]

I have always had the opposite with leather letting flints come loose, especially those flints with a V top and no flat.  I could wrap lead around the front and get a good hold with that type of flint.  We are hearing what I have heard before, military thing but not for sporting locks.

DP

[Larry Pletcher]

This question had been asked on another forum.  I was disappointed that many opinions were based on emotions instead of any real study.  I decided to photograph the spark production with both methods.  I worked pretty hard to eliminate variables.  I won't go into detail here; the methodology is included with the pics.  The test results are located at the following link:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/lead-vs-leather-flint-attachment-study.php

When this was posted on the other list, each side looked at the pics and claimed victory.    My opinion was that there was no disernable difference in the spark production.  BTW this lock is the Siler that has been fired thousands of times but was never on a gun.  It really deserves to have that honor, I think.

Merry Christmas,
Larry

[Daryl]

In the ohoto sequence, I see the leather giving superior table-bounces in all but one photo.  Perhaps it depends a lot of the lock used.  My Dickert lock seemed to be the opposite, in that lead was superior, but hard on flints. I rarely get broken, shattered flints, English or Rich's with leather, but it happened fairly often with a lead wrap.

[northmn]

<sup>I guess I don't understand how lead...a dead, non-resiliant material...could hold a flint better than a softer, compressionable piece of leather, which when tightened then keeps tension on the flint as a result of the leather material being compressed.

As far as lock function goes...when I hear that a lead flint wrap improves the functionality of a lock, it makes me think that it must be compensating for some lock or flint management problem, and that the root cause of the problem really ought to be diagnosed rather than compensated for...just my .02cents of course</sup>[/quote
 Pure lead is soft and imprints the groove of the jaws and does not move.   A flint with a flat can be held either with lead or leather, but those with a V type top often wedge out when leather is used, where lead can be folded over to hole them in place.  I agree with Larry that the photos show and insignificant difference  but kept wedgin out due to shape.

DP

[Dphariss]

The lead vs leather thing is another subject with nearly infinite variables.
The lead wrap will slow the cocks movement slightly since it increases the weight. It may increase the inertia/energy carried to the frizzen and allow the cock to maintain a little more speed as it scrapes the frizzen? Maybe not?
I use leather. I have some left over scraps of thick brain tan deer that really works well. Fairly thick oil tan cow does well. Thin hard leather is not as good.

Basically if lead works for you go for it. I use leather.

Dan

[Daryl]

I have had both leather and lead loosen.  L&R locks being the easiest to get the 'tightest' due to the hardened screws.  - an observation.

[hanshi]

"...but those with a V type top often wedge out when leather is used..."

Haven't experienced that one...I use thick soft pieces of leather...plus, I may also get benefit by having 1/4" cut-outs in the curve of my leather flint wraps so I can slide the back of the flint all the way back against the jaw screw.
That way there's no wiggle room or any way for the flint to move...its against a hard stop and its clamped down tightly from the top.

I do as Roundball does and rarely have an issue with leather.  I tried lead for a while way back when and could see no advantage over leather.  A very individual choice; each to his own.

[northmn]

I cut out the back of both lead and leather as Roundball suggests.  Always used fairly thin leather, might have been the problem and may try thicker leather.  Don't know where I picked up using thin leather  Reason why we bring up these little discussions, old dogs can learn new tricks if they are willing.

DP

[hanshi]

I used buckskin for a long time but recently started using a thicker cowhide.  After examining the photos by L. Pletcher, I have to conclude that I, too, see not significant difference in the two.  It's just a matter of individual results now.

[northmn]

I used things like old shoe tongues and that sort of thing.  Very thin leather.  Nothing as thick as the stuff I see you using, but I think I may see a further advantage in flint placement as to where it hits the frizzen as it would lift the flint a bit higher also.  Now I have to dig around for some thicker leather. 

DP

[Daryl]

A dozen or so, would last me anther 30 years - maybe more, since I'/m getting at least 4 years out of one now without any problems and they are much thinner than in that century 'old' lock design.  Is the stamping on the barrel of the same vintage?

[northmn]

I have scraps of leather laying around.  Your Hawken dates you.  Some of the current cars I used to drive when new are now considered "classics" and "antiques".   

DP

[northmn]

I liked to experiment like you are talking about also and built my own guns in a variety of calibers.  I think I was the first in my area to show up with both a 32 and a 40 at Rondy's as well a few smoothbores, including a Brown Bess.  Had I not shot left handed I probably would have settled on a TC or more likely a CVA Mountain rifle.  The thing that gets me when I day they date us is that I am beginning to wonder if the rifles I made back then would be listed in contemporary or antique.  You could really get a buy on used TC's for a while when Minnesota first proposed the ML deer season.  People thought it would be early and scooped up a lot of TC Hawkens and Senecas.  When the season was offered after the regular season they sold off a lot of them.  While not "authentic" our clubs let them compete because they were as you stated, starting points for rekindling the interest. Lot of people stayed with them.  All this happened in the last century as you mentioned.

DP

[Artificer]

Since it was authentic, I tried using a lead wrap years ago in my first Pederesoli Brown Bess.  Just could not get it to hold consistantly.  My second Pedersoli Brown Bess is the same way.  Same thing for the Navy Arms Charleville I used to have.  Also tried lead in other locks over the years and it never seemed to hold that well.

In 18th century battle re-enacting, most folks used lead when I came back to it in the late 1990's.  Most of them were the guys who could not keep their muskets firing, though one guy used lead on his Jap Bess and it worked splendidly for him.  I always ran out of ammo before I had any lock problems using leather.

Since I always have a fairly good supply of leather around, I can try different thicknesses and see what each gun prefers - to get the flint at just the right point close to the frizzen.   I grease up the jaws and screw then wet the leather and tighten the leather down until it dries.  Then I wipe off the grease after the leather dries.  That really makes a nice fit for the flint. So I stick to leather.