Schuetzen conical bullet sizing?

[BDPalmer]

I just picked up a muzzle loading Schuetzen parts kit with a 32 cal. 1-14” twist barrel for conical bullets. My question is what do I size the bullets to? I would like to run grease groove bullets in this one. Barrel bore is .316”, groove dia is .323”.  Are these run with a .316” soft bullet that just firmly pushes down? Or do I need to make a false muzzle starter for a larger size? Any recommendations on bullet molds? Thank you!

[Daryl]

Check all makes of moulds from Buffalo Arms (they have several different makes, including their own).
I would suggest a bore sized conical. I you can make a bullet swage/drawing die out of a piece of barrel, and pre-groove your bullets, you will
likely achieve better results.
A 14" ROT should stabilize low vel. bullets up to about 120gr., maybe. 14" is pretty slow for under .36cal. imho.
So - if you can pre-groove them with a loading press, a light weight 8mm (.323 or .321") bullet mould should work.
If you can't pre-groove them, then a mould casting .316" in pure lead might work for you. I went the pre-grooved bullet direction back in the 70's
with a Bauska barrel and with a fresh crown, it made MOA groups(100yards).
"Accurate Moulds" in the States makes custom moulds. You can select any one of their bullet moulds/designs and change groove location or diameter,
shape or whatever & they will accommodate you.

[BDPalmer]

I won't be able to get a short piece of barrel to make a drawing die, I do like that concept! Looks like I should start with a .316". I was given one bullet, but no info on it. It looks to be from a Lyman Mold 319247 from my limited research, says it would be 165 gr.. I would need to size that down to the .316". Suppose I could start there and shorten a couple down to 120gr. for testing. I will keep looking. Thank you for the input, I really appreciate it!!

[Daryl]

I would think 165gr. is too heavy, but you just never know for sure until you try them.
Yes, sizing to .316" or possibly .3165"/.317 would be better yet. Much depends on the crown and how easily they start.
Of course, pure lead will likely need to be used. At most, perhaps 40:1 would be OK. The bullet must oburate to fill the grooves.
With only 3 1/2 thou of rifling depth, the 40:1 might work well, but I'd start with pure lead.
The shorter the bullet, the easier starting and seating.
I found for a commercial lube, Lyman's Black Powder Gold works well on REAL bullets in pistol and rifle, so would do well
with your bullet too.
The 4 (squarish) grease grooves of this bullet should hold enough lube for the job at hand. Another lube that will work is SPG.
If you want to make your own lube, 60:40, BX and Vaseline is as good as ANY commercial lube I have used.
That has been my experience, in muzzleloaders shooting slugs as well as BP Ctg., guns.
I hope some of this is usable.
Working with a new gun/barrel, I find quite exciting.(in my old age - lol)
Lubing first, then sizing is the best scenario. Then, no damage to the bullet is done.  I have sized lubed bullets down .009", from
.375" to .366" without any damage whatsoever. If done in a lube-sizer, the bullet will collapse if not lubed first. You won't know what
diameter a pure lead bullet will come out at, from a .319" mould. It might need no sizing at all, but I expect it will come out at .317:" to .318"
depending on the actual diameter of the mould.

[Daryl]

Thinking some more on this, a loading rod with a 'bushing' of brass fairly snug to the bore (maybe .001" or .0015" undersized, with a nose shaped to fit the nose of the bullet
would help with loading the bullet straight.
Enough powder must be used to obtain obturation, but not too much.
I expect this rifle will be cap lock.  Conicals are hard on the hole in the nipple due to increased breech pressure over round ball shooting.
Have you researched platinum lined nipples?

[BDPalmer]

Great info! As this is a new build, what would be a preferred crown for this? I have a full machine shop here, so I can shape as needed.

Just started making shaped starters and ramrods for some others, will do the same for this!

Haven’t found suppliers for platinum nipples yet.

Kind of excited for this one, may have to bump some other projects out of the way!!

[snapper]

I think you are going to learn more once the rifle is built on what you need.  You might need to buy more than one bullet sizer and more than one mold before you find the sweet spot. 

I have no experience with Schuetzen rifles, but I do have a lot of experience with shooting bullets out of ML.

Part of the journey of a rifle like this is trying to find what it likes.  If you get it all figured out prior to being able to shoot it, you will be lucky.

If you are looking for a platinum lined nipple, I can help you there.  There is only one person that I know of that makes them and that is my buddy, Rick Weber.  I have 10 or so of his nipples.  Rick Weber <ricksweber@gmail.com>

I have long range target rifles with no crown.  Flush cut with great accuracy.  I dont use a false muzzle, but I do use a muzzle protector.


Fleener

[BDPalmer]

I've been keeping my eye out for some other molds for other projects, thought I'd look out for this one as well. There have been a few concepts that weren't clear to me, but this info from everyone have been Great! This gets me a starting point and that is what I needed!! Not much info on the net about conicals and muzzle loading. I'm looking forward to the trial and error when I get to this!

If you're hanging with Rick Webber you must be doing the long range thing at Oak Ridge. That is my long term bucket list goal! The muzzle loading Alexander Henry rifles, in my opinion, are the most beautiful thing out there! I might get to go up in October and drool.

[snapper]

I plan on being there in October.   If you get there, be sure to seek me out and say Hi.

Fleener

[Clowdis]

Whatever bullet weight you decide to go with should be sized to .323 or .324. That's why false muzzles were popular with Schutzen shooters. I'd suggest reading up on it by getting some of the books written on the subject.

[Mike Brooks]

You're going to need a false muzzle and use a paper patch to be competitive. I use a 200gr bullet in my .32 caliber schuetzen.

[Daryl]

Mike - what is the rate of twist in your .32 conical's barrel?
Will a 14" twist stabilize a 200gr. bullet?

[Mike Brooks]

Mike - what is the rate of twist in your .32 conical's barrel?
Will a 14" twist stabilize a 200gr. bullet?

Mine is a douglas XX with a 1 in 14 twist. I shoot a Hoch tapered bullet that weighs 210gr. It shoots sub minute of angle.

[Daryl]

Interesting Mike. So, appears a 200gr. bullet is not too heavy for a 14" ROT. Good to know.
I now remember that it was 16" ROT that was borderline for a 170gr. .321" bullet, but did
work with a cast bullet and black powder. I had thought it was 14". My bad. (memory)

[Bob Roller]

A man here in Huntington WVa had a Pope Schuetzen that had a gain wist and false muzzle but he never used the false muzzle but breech seated the bullet.I wanted to try it with only black powder and the false muzzle but he would not do it but I don't think he knew how to do it safely.I had a Hoyt 375 and used a 275 grain lubed bullet and 60 grains of GOEX 3fg and it shot well.The mould was for a 375 H&H.
Sizing dies are really easy to make and the last one I made was a 451 for Heelerau in Australia and chucking reamers are not expensive and are available in increments of .001.My Hoyt barrel was .375 bore diameter and I sized the bullet to that diameter and the 60 grain load would upset it to groove diameter (I suppose).Making these sizers is a very simple job if you hava a lathe and I made Heelerau's from brass and threaded it 7/8x14 for a reloading press.
Bob Roller

i got my old Lyman catalog from 1953 or earlier and there are a number of moulds shown but it's not likely many of these old numbers are valid today.Lyman 32360 is a good looking one and there maybe modern similar ones available.Listed weight is 225 grains.I think modern mould makers may have access to all these old numbers and can make up a mould like this one that has a stack of lube rings.You might call Lyman and see what if anything is made by them now that can be used in your gun.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

I had forgotten about the .001" graduation on chucking reamers for making sizing dies. Thanks Bob.

[Bob Roller]

I had forgotten about the .001" graduation on chucking reamers for making sizing dies. Thanks Bob.

Daryl,
There are so many sizes they take up a lot of area in a catalog and some like 5/16 (3125)to .313 to me are absurd using common machines but I suppose on CNC systems they would be OK.The one I made for Heelerau was made from brass and sized the test bullet to .451 for his
Whitworth.He told me the results were outstanding.
Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

I just picked up a muzzle loading Schuetzen parts kit with a 32 cal. 1-14” twist barrel for conical bullets. My question is what do I size the bullets to? I would like to run grease groove bullets in this one. Barrel bore is .316”, groove dia is .323”.  Are these run with a .316” soft bullet that just firmly pushes down? Or do I need to make a false muzzle starter for a larger size? Any recommendations on bullet molds? Thank you!

To be correct a false muzzle has to be done before the final ream and rifling. Also note that a “conical” is a bullet like a Minie Ball. Modern schuetzen rifles shoot cylindrical bullets like a brass suppository gun. You might find that a guide starter would help accuracy but these have to be carefully made a the muzzle turned round so the starter is perfectly aligned with the bore. These are needed for cloth patched picket bullets and a false muzzle for long “naked” or PP bullets requires one as well.
If the bullet fits the bore fairly well it will shoot OK. BP will upset the bullet before it even moves to fill the bore. Nor is a hollow base needed. In other words they will be .323 when the powder starts to move them and will not gas cut. HOWEVER. Nose shape is very important since BP will cause an improperly shaped nose (for BP) to slump off center. Yeah I have been there done that. But not with a ML.
Bullet LENGTH is the key factor in stabilization weight is mostly irrelevant except that heavy bullets are longer.
Berger bullets has a stability calculator on their web site. I put in guessed at stuff and came up with this:



So a bullet at or <1.2” in length should be good. But I don’t know what velocity you will get. And remember that the bullet will shorten as it is expanded to fill the grooves. So as cast a 1.3” might still be OK but I think 1.1” long would be better and a 1.2 from the mould will shorten some so….
https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
Years ago a friend and I had Ron Long cut a barrel with a .456 BORE 18 twist and used a .457-.458” Lyman 457125 with 70 gr of powder and a card wad and a lubed felt wad IIRC (this was about 40 years ago). Rifle shot well for the time frame and would stay with the BPCRs to 1000-1200 yards. But REALLY needed a platinum lined nipple. I wish we had played with harder alloys too. But the 457125 upsets “straight” and we never had any key holes etc. We simply THUMB (stupid spell check) started them and seated on the powder. No starter etc.

[hudson]

 Dphariss I agree good stuff