Who was the most influential 18th century gunsmith for the american longrifle?

[spgordon]

I asked AI for the earliest contemporary mention of Dickert and they said this:


I assume it is simply an ad, but he was only 24 years old and it would be interesting to see this ad. Scott do you have a copy of this ad?

Lesson of the Day: ChatGPT makes things up. When students use it, it often generates entirely fake references in footnotes and entirely fake quotations from real texts.

There was no advertisement for Dickert in the Pennsylvania Gazette on 1 March 1764.

[jdm]

spgordon,   There are a number of us out here ( The silent majority ) who appreciate all the research you do. I  know it can be very time consuming and we reap the rewards of your work.   Thanks  Jim

[DaveM]

Excellent, Scott, thanks for the fact checking! A lesson indeed! User beware.

Thanks for the interesting thoughts and names that came to mind from this group to the original question - a question that was too broad!

Dickert
Schroyer
Thomas Earle
Pomeroys
Kuntz
Many others

[bama]

I am afraid that the younger generation ( the got to have it now and not really work for it generation ) will take whatever AI tells them for fact without question. I would say that was no such thing as an unimportant gunsmith in early America.

Thanks very much Scott for your input, it really helps put things in perspective.

[backsplash75]

Which PA gunsmiths were recognized as top quality before the war?  Albrecht? Oerter? Henry?  Who?   

If anybody knows of any contemporary comments that identify any particular Pennsylvania gunsmith as "top quality," I'd be eager to hear of them.

close but no cigar. I may have to start all of my correspondence with similar info in brackets. Sometimes aesthetics were not the most important thing to 18th century consumers


Sir Wm Johnson

January the 24th. 1761 , [My Urine Still Foul] The Weather
soe cold that handling Brass, or Iron leaves a Blister on the
Fingers: & in Bed People are cold even with ten Blankets on.
They are remarkable at Philadelphia for making rifled Barrell
Gunns, which throw a Ball above 300 yards, vastly well, &
much better than any other Barrells. People here in general
Shoot very well with Ball, but don't doe much with Shot. The
Dutch all wear their hair (which buckles 17 like Candles) or
Night Caps, they wont be at the Expence of Wiggs, The Men
of them sleep in their Breeches, & Stockings, & the Women in
their Pettycoats. A Slea carries five Barrells of wheat.

There is a sort of whiskey distilled from Peaches, & Rotten
Apples, it is called Brandy: 'tis mostly made in the lower part
of Philadelphia; Should a person be thirsty at Night, he stands
a bad Chance, unless he drinks Rum, every Other Liquor being
frozen.

I think there is a series of letters from Sir Wm J about his difficulties in finding and buying a rifle that lived up to the accuracy hype.


volume 12

Johnson Hall June 11th 1772
p467-8
Sr Wm J to Col George Croghan

"...If Mr. McKee, or You could procure me a Rifle that is proved & shoots verry exact, (otherwise it would be needless to Send it, as there are Several here but none that will Shoot so nice or exact as I hear they do that way.) You would much oblidge me, by Sendiing it * any good opertunity. the [Amt of it] shall be paid to Mr. McKee when known by Yrs.
WJ

Note I don't care how plain it is, if it shoots true or exact.-

[backsplash75]

This Henry quote might also be of interest: https://books.google.com/books?id=jAdmAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=%22Comfort+came+to+me+in+the+shape+of+lieutenant,+now+general+Nichols%22&source=bl&ots=IBdcDgAWHA&sig=ACfU3U2WVzUHOpVPunrT-J1tRKPMxmXnfA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYvOPo8OKFAxVRElkFHU52D7wQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Comfort%20came%20to%20me%20in%20the%20shape%20of%20lieutenant%2C%20now%20general%20Nichols%22&f=false

The following morning, (October 24*) presented me with many difficulties : to be sure my horn, with a pound of powder, and my pouch, with seventy bullets, were unharmed by the water, though around my neck in the course of our swimming: Yet I had lost my knapsack, my hat, and my most precious rifle. P60

Comfort came to me in the shape of lieutenant, now general Nichols, then of Hendricks. He had two hats—he presented me one:


Money was out of the question, an order upon my father, dated at this place, for the price of twelve dollars was accepted, and afterwards in due time, paid honorably. This gun was short, about 45 balls to the pound, the stock shattered greatly, and worth about 40 shillings. Necessity has no law. Never did a gun, ill as its appearance was, shoot with greater certainty, and where the ball touched, from its size, it was sure to kill. This observation, trifling as it may seem, ought to induce government to adopt guns of this size, as to length of
barrel, and size of ball.
_________________

[45 balls to the pound would be .469 dia. or probably for a .48 or .49 bore on the rifle.]

[spgordon]

In 1763 Edward Shippen (check out that handwriting!) praised Matthias Roesser (1708-1771), who trained William Henry (1729-1786)--and perhaps Dickert?--as "ingenious"--but he was speaking of Roesser's locksmithing skills:

"Old Mathias Roeser our ingenious Locksmith (from Germany) has at last brought me your Chest Lock with the screws and Pins belonging to it, which I send you ..."

[Carl Young]

Thanks again Scott. FYI you are on my "must read" list of posters!
Regards,
Carl

[spgordon]

Thanks again Scott. FYI you are on my "must read" list of posters!

Thank you, Carl. Very nice of you to say!

[smylee grouch]

Maybe one should define the criteria for " the finest " before any names are dropped.

[rich pierce]

Maybe one should define the criteria for " the finest " before any names are dropped.

Agree 100%.
Consistent excellence?
Innovation?
Fame?
Production?
Trend setting?
Individuality/creativity?
Carving and engraving virtuosity?
Cool or funky folk art style?

We all have our own criteria.

Another approach might be, “what is the most stunning rifle of the pre-Revolutionary War period in your view? Why?”

Same question, Golden Age?

[DaveM]

How about most influential?

And thoughts / photos welcome on any of the specific variables Rich notes?

[rich pierce]

How about most influential?

And thoughts / photos welcome on any of the specific variables Rich notes?

The earliest English trade rifles were sturdy, wooden patchbox guns that had architecture and carving seemingly modeled after Lancaster rifles. Did they study and choose what was likely to be well accepted or just have an early Dickert or similar colonial rifle in hand and ran with what they had? This might point toward “most influential”, or not.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Despite an innocuous (to my mind) thread title, this thread has been quite interesting!

FWIW, Henry Moll/Mull was in Lancaster town quite early, 1740s or slightly earlier I believe?  Will have to double check.  He apparently ran up debt, however, and left for other pastures.  Much like Roesser, no documented surviving work.

Christopher Breitenherd(hard?) was also apparently quite talented and was there fairly early, don't know how his age compares to that of Dickert.

[DaveM]

Here is another - John Schreit of Reading - he came over from europe in 1731 where he was listed as under 16 years of age on the ship. I assume he would have trained entirely in america. His family lived at Ephrata north of Lancaster. Who in the world trained Schreit here in the 1730’s/1740’s? Maybe Mathias Roesser or another Lancaster maker?  I doubt that Schreit would have trained east of Reading. And Reading only formed in 1750-1751.

And what if George Schroyer actually did some training in Lancaster before he went to Reading in about 1762? Peter Resor’s early rifle (1770’s) kind of reminds me of Schroyer’s work. Did Schroyer also spend time in Lancaster with the Roesser’s before 1762? Hmmmm

[rich pierce]

Peter Resor’s early rifle (1770’s) kind of reminds me of Schroyer’s work. Did Schroyer also spend time in Lancaster with the Roesser’s before 1762? Hmmmm

I’ve wondered if there are unknown connections between Newcomer, Schroyer, and Peter Resor. But, I digress.

[DaveM]

Take a look at this map and listing of Lancaster’s first lot owners. It appears that in 1740, Henry Mull the gunsmith and Mathias Roesser the gunsmith bought lots two doors away from each other..lots 425 and 468 on King Street.

[spgordon]

That's very interesting, Dave!

I know nothing about this Henry Moll/Mull.

Breidenhart seems to have arrived in Lancaster in 1752 or 1753 and by 1757 owned property on Queen Street--which, a decade later (after it passed through other owners), Dickert purchased. In that 2013 article, I speculated that either he or Roesser trained Dickert.

Breidenhart is not listed in the 1765 Lancaster city tax list as a gunsmith (I think he's listed as a tavern keeper): the only men listed as gunsmiths are Dickert, William Foulks, Roesser, and John Henry (William Henry's younger brother).

Breidenhart is, however, one of the gunsmiths hauled before the Lancaster County committee of inspection in November 1775 and was forced, with other gunsmiths (Christian Jack, Peter Reigert, Michael Wither, Jacob Kraft, Peter Gonter, John Miller, John Frederick Fainot, John Graeff, Peter Reasor), to make muskets instead of rifles. Presumably Dickert was not hauled before the committee because he was already in compliance with its demands.

[DaveM]

There is an old newspaper article that lists the Lancaster taxables in 1754. Henry Mull is still listed as a lot owner then. Christopher “Reydenhart” is listed,with out the “B” in front of his name as a lot owner of a 1/2 lot. I assume that is the same person. We may want to broaden searches to his name without a B?

It notes a Rudy Stoner renting a property from Mathias Roesser (Razer). It is unclear if this means Rudy was renting 5 proprties from Roesser, or if Roesser owned 5 properties and Rudy rented one of them. It is interesting that Mathias Razer himself is listed in the “English” section of the tax list.

This is all “in the weeds” but could give some clues as to who really was the primary early gunsmith beginnng to influence others to develop the american longrifle.

[spgordon]

There is an old newspaper article that lists the Lancaster taxables in 1754. Henry Mull is still listed as a lot owner then. Christopher “Reydenhart” is listed,with out the “B” in front of his name as a lot owner of a 1/2 lot. I assume that is the same person. We may want to broaden searches to his name without a B?

It notes a Rudy Stoner renting a property from Mathias Roesser (Razer). It is unclear if this means Rudy was renting 5 proprties from Roesser, or if Roesser owned 5 properties and Rudy rented one of them.

This is great stuff!

I strongly suspect that the dropped "B" in Breidenhart's name was a unique transcription error: usually these variations in names occur because people hear things differently & write down what they hear (as best they can)--but I doubt anybody would have heard "Reydenhart" instead of "Breidenhart." I'd need to look at the original document from that 1754 list to see whether the error stems from whoever put the list together in 1754 or, as I am guessing, whoever wrote that article for the Lancaster County Historical Society journal.

Fun fact: in 1760, William Henry purchased his two-story brick home on the northwest corner of the original Market Square in Lancaster. His neighbor, who purchased the other part of lot No. 175 on the same day in February 1760, was Rudy Stoner (1728-1769)--he was a clockmaker. (One of Stoner’s tall clocks sold at auction in 2015 for $192,000.)

It's always interested me that in the late 1740s/1750s William Henry was apprenticed to a Moravian (Roesser) and rented property from a Moravian (Bender) but didn't visit the Moravian church until the early 1760s and didn't join it until 1765.

[rich pierce]

I keep re-reading the replies. Anyone have a clue as to the Philadelphia gunsmiths Sir William Johnson was referring to? Or is it possible that Philly was a marketing hub getting guns from Lancaster? Seems SWJ would have known of Lancaster. He was well traveled.

They are remarkable at Philadelphia for making rifled Barrell
Gunns, which throw a Ball above 300 yards, vastly well, &
much better than any other Barrells.

[DaveM]

Sorry one more - this I found online and it is interesting. Especially Roesser’s friendship with Heger/Hager, the fellow who founded Hagerstown Md.

[spgordon]

That article has interesting info. But--just to pre-empt further mistakes--it confuses William Henry I (who was Roesser's apprentice & who did leave the gun trade to become a merchant) with William Henry II (who, as a teenager, apprenticed to Albrecht, became a member of the Moravian congregation at Lititz). Nor was Roesser an armorer to Braddock's expedition. (That's a new one!--the author is confusing Roesser with William Henry I, who, we now know, also wasn't armorer to Braddock's expedition.) The article also lifts some of my published writing verbatim without acknowledgement, but that's the internet!

Fun Fact 2: When Albrecht moved to Lititz, he may have purchased Roesser's tools. When Moravian authorities were discussing whether Albrecht should move to Lititz, they noted that “the tools of a gunsmith who died in Lancaster” (that was Roesser) “are supposed to be sold this month.” All the tools that Albrecht would have used as a gunsmith in Bethlehem and Christiansbrunn between 1750 and 1766 were owned by the Moravian congregation and wouldn't have been "his" to take with him to Lititz.

[Eric Kettenburg]

As of a deed/indenture of May 1755, Henry Mull was noted as "late of the boro of Lancaster" so I would assume that by May 1755 he was gone.  (This is a more modern transcription of the original file)

[DaveM]

Eric, I can do some digging but I think Henry Moll/Mull moved to Windsor Township in Berks County. He is noted on a deed from the 1760’s there as a blacksmith. That may be up towards the Hamburg vicinity.