Another ball\patch combo. Patch is getting cut loading

[Steeltrap]

Brand new GM 45 cal barrel. Using Hornady .490RB and .018 pillow ticking, Trappers Mink oil for lube.

Now, I cut this barrel and re-crowned it. Today I shot it for the first time and could not get any consistent groupings (50gr Swiss FF).

So....I'm thinking:

Facts:
---Patches were\could have been to dry as I lubed them last year then stored in a sealed plastic bag.
---RB is "hard" to start with short starter. I have to whack it pretty hard to get it into barrel.
---When I got home I loaded three PRB and pulled them back out. All three had the patches cut from loading.

What to do?:
---I took some 340gr paper and "thumb sanded" the muzzle. It's nice and smooth but I loaded another with the patch freshly lubed and the patch stilll cut. (Initial load still needed a substantial whack with using a short starter)
---Go with thinner patch. Maybe .015 or even .010?

I feel pretty certain the reason for the bad grouping is the patch is cut when loaded.

Any input or idea would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Frank]

Joe Woods coning tool.

[Hungry Horse]

 Well if you’re trying to put a .490 round ball in a .45 cal. Barrel it should cut the patch.

Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Not necessarily - LOL, depends on the crown. Well, I do suspect a .490 would cut.
With a .440" ball and .018" patch, there is no reason to be cutting the patches when lubed with water,spit or anything, if the
crown is nicely radiused and smooth.
A .445" or even a .450" ball will load in that bore size, with that patch - IF the balls are Plumber's lead or softer. I would think even a 40:1
lead to tin should load as well.
I've still a bunch of .690's that I load in my .69 with a .021" patch.
The smaller the bore size the easier they are to load.

[MJBush]

Did you find any of the patches? A blown patch could be for any number of things not necessarily the crown,
I have seen the ball starter be a problem. Cutting the ball before driven into the barrel. Also, many rifles are powder sensitive. I shoot 65 grain of 2F Swiss in my Green MT barrel, which shot well, but the new Goex 75 grains 3F was GREAT!
Michael

[RichG]

You said you lubed patches last year. Depending on the lube, the patches might not be as strong as they should be. I load .440 and .018 patches in both an old Sharon and a Colerain barrel and have never cut/torn a patch. You could try some 7oz denim(.015) very tough material. Double check your crown for any edges witch may be cutting patch. Also try some new patching.

[Hawg]

I would expect a .490 ball in a .450 bore to be extremely hard to start and to cut patches. Situation normal.

[Steeltrap]

Post one number wrong and get "payback" 

Yeah.....It's Hornady .440 RB's. I used Trappers Mink for lube.

I'd post a pic of the muzzle but I doubt that would help. Muzzle looks great and it's tough to run your finger inside a picture.

I'll spend a little more time with fine sandpaper smoothing the muzzle and see how that goes.

"Old patches" could also be the culprit. I have some dry one's that I'll lube up and see how that goes.

Thank you for all responses!!

[smylee grouch]

MJB is right, check the shot patches to see what's  going on then  proceed from there. 

[rich pierce]

Brand new barrel, run scotchbrite or steel wool through it on a jag a couple dozen times. If you use an undersized jag you can get scotchbrite through without tearing it. Or use patches with valve grinding compound rubbed into them.

[DGB]

Hi,

I just got to ask, is that .490 a typo ??

DGB

[DGB]

OOPS, Missed the .440 correction.
DGB

[Steeltrap]

Ok. I lapped the muzzle a bit more, then ran a patch several times with a bore past to knock out any over-sharp areas.

I cleaned it up and “loaded” three mor RB’s (this time I use 62 cal 😁 ) and no patch cuts. Also, the initial load went in easier. (Or I suddenly got stronger)

[Daryl]

The left hand muzzle is a GM .45 barrel. My normal load in this barrel is a .445" ball and 10 ounce denim (.0225 at that time) or the .0235" Mattress Ticking we used to get.
75gr. 3F or 85gr. 2F GOEX with a slippery lube. 2,240fps chronographed.   A water based lube would shoot with as little as 65gr. 3F.

The right hand muzzle is a .577 Musketoon barrel that actually measured .574" land to land.

[alacran]

If you have a CO2 discharger, you can load your ball and patch (no powder please) ram it down the barrel leaving an inch of space above the breech.
Discharge the ball into a box with rags or plastic bags. You can see when you retrieve the ball and the patch if there is any cutting. If it cuts without a powder charge it will definitely, do it with a powder charge. This saves both powder and balls.

[smylee grouch]

And if you don't have a discharger , I take a 6 inch piece of 3\8 brass rod, oil the bore, slides the rod in the bore and load the patched ball in about 6 inches. Then upend the barrel and the rod will slide down and push the ball out.

[Eric Krewson]

Try some pocket drill for patching, really tough stuff.

If you have a sharp place in your bore, it will show up under close inspection, use a needle file to lightly remove it and resmooth the crown evenly all the way around.

[Daryl]

Sorry - I glossed over the old lubed patches. They are garbage. The only ones I've known to hold up, were some 12 ounce (.030") I had lubed up with Neetsfoot Oil
and were over a year old. They still loaded and shot well, but I was only using a very weak, low pressure 82gr. powder charge in the .69.

[Steeltrap]

I'm going to put the primary blame on the old patches. But I did re-do the muzzle with 340grit and did some strokes with bore paste.

I usually use my air compressor to blow out any un-shot projectile. I remove the vent liner, dump the powder out and blow out the projectile. I know there is a safety issue using an air compressor, but the projectile is "aimed" at a plastic garbage can with a concrete wall behind it.

With the old patches the air compressor wouldn't blow out the projectile. I had to use a ball puller.  I haven't tried it with the new one's so I'll test and let you know.

[Steeltrap]

So...once I start thinking about it I had to go test it. I loaded up this PRB to about 1" of the breech, then using my air compressor I blew it out.....caught it in a box with paper stuff.  No patch cutting.

[Leatherbark]

After you 340 grit, use 600 and then crocus cloth and make it like a mirror.  I go back and forth with the thumb 5 times then rotate the barrel 1/4 turn, 5 times rotate, etc. I then use Pocket drill cloth as I haven't seen good ticking in a long time.  With a .490 and Jo'anns Pocket Drill and bear oil I dont even need a short starter and the rifle will shoot under 2 inches at 50 yards when I aim it right.

Bob

[Steeltrap]

Had a chance to get back out and shoot some. Since my .45-.50 patches are no good I used my .54 cal patches.

I was shooting with the rifle front rested, but I was shouldering the buttstock.  With 60gr FF Swiss I got a 3 shot group of 2.5” at 25 yds. Then a 2”, two shot group using 65gr FF. (I started out shooting 50gr FF Swiss and got unimpressive results)

THE .54 patch size is somewhat “sloppy” to deal with. But I wanted to shoot it. The groups were not that impressive. I gathered about 8 patches. All burned well with only one having a cut in it.

So, the next outing I will have a rest that’s solid on both front & rear. I will also have “right size” patches and will expanded the powder load a bit more.

[Daryl]

A ball put into the muzzle on a long strip of patching material should look like the ball in Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook as to marks on the ball.

[Steeltrap]

Ok. Well that makes sense as if the "fitting" was to lose there would be blow by in the groves.

[bpd303]

Since I like to thumb start my patched ball, I get blow by with 2 of my rifles. A small wad filler of jute or my favorite kapok before the patched ball eliminate the blow by and accuracy doesn't seem to be effected.

Randy aka bpd303