Author Topic: Propellants?  (Read 9732 times)

Woodstock

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Propellants?
« on: December 28, 2009, 07:40:44 PM »

I have been poking around on the gun building part of this forum for a while now picking the brains of the experts to help me put an Early Virginia together. I figure I would let them rest for a while and bother you guys. I guess this is the place to post this (these) questions.
I read somewhere in this forum (can’t find it again) that propellants other than black powder such as Pirodex are more corrosive than black powder. Any truth to this?
Due to work schedules and a hectic life style, I have not done anything pertaining to black powder in the past 18 years. (Sorry to say) I stopped by Bass Pro to pick up a few things this weekend. I could not find the Goex in the area where the Pirodex and other propellants were.  I looked on the top shelf a few rows down and saw the Goex. Picked up a can and it was empty. There was a sign saying “See an associate behind the counter if you wish to purchase Goex Black Powder” WHATS UP WITH THIS???? They keep it behind the counter?? WHY?? That is just as bad as stopping to pick up some 24 hour decongestant off the rack only to find out that you have to get it from BEHIND THE COUNTER from the Pharmacist!!!!! Have not had to have any in a long time so I was a bit miffed to say the least. Are there plans to put the whole world behind a counter and no one told me??
 ???

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 08:10:26 PM »
Question regarding Pyrodex...it will ruin your barrel and breech plug.
Comment on GOEX...use Black Powder - any brand - in your Black Powder guns, and learn how to clean them properly.
Comment on society...get used to it.  Getting angry is a waste of energy.  Learn to fight battles you are likely to win, or at least those that really matter, or just fall on your sword and get it over with.
See what threads involving Pyrodex does to me?
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 08:15:09 PM »
I'm with Taylor on this. Please read the thread in building section on the Breech Failure.  Mad Monk and Dphar pretty much lay things on the line about Pyrodex, T7, etc.  The picture of the interior of this barrel is proof. BTW- we have possession of 2 other barrels owned by the same person, in much the same shape - he's a slow learner, but chose to blame the guy who blued them for him for their condition.  Says the bluing itself pitted the barrels, however we know that to be not true.  I and most everyone else here have many blued barrel guns in perfect condition - hot bluing doesn't hurt barrels, but pyrodex sure does.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 08:18:49 PM by Daryl »

Woodstock

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 08:28:01 PM »
Hold yer horse there fellers!!!
Thanks, the post from Mad Monk was where I read it at. Right under my nose. I have no intentions in using anything other that black powder.  I have a capper I build many moons ago that has stamped right on the barrel “BLACK POWDER ONLY” I am sure it is there for a reason. I asked simple questions. Why is black powder behind the counter and the other stuff up for grabs by anyone? Is black powder less corrosive than the alternatives? I am not looking for sarcasm nor have any desire to ruffle feathers. Just an answer.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 08:30:24 PM »
Under ATF regulations the stores are not allowed to have cans containing black powder on display nor in reach of customers.  So they simply use an empty can fpr displays.

In the gun stores they may keep an ATF approved magazine under the container from which they pull cans of bp for sale to a customer.

But about 2 years ago they come up with yet another requlation.  At one time the ATF simply licensed the gun shop to handle and sell black powder.  So anybody in the employ of the store could get it out and sell it to you.  Now the individual clerks/salespersons must be licensed.  And it is not an easy process to get the license.

My wife works in Dixon's shop during the Gunmaker's Fair.  She is not permitted to pick up a can of BP from under the counter and sell it to a customer.  Only those in the shop who have been licensed by the ATF can touch it.

But in the past I have had UPS trucks pull up in front of the house and heave a pair of 25-pound cases of BP on the front porch.  My wife them moves them into the house.  When she cleans my gun and computer room she sometimes have to move cans of BP around while cleaning.  But in the gun shop she cannot as much as touch one can of it.

The rule does not apply to the subs.  You can have cases of bottles of the subs on a shelf where the customers can pick them up and carry them to a counter to pay.  The subs don't have to be stored in magazines like BP.  But let me tell you.  If I were to make a pipe bomb I would go with one of the subs that I will not name here.  When it first came out I alerted my buddy at the ATF forensic lab.

The thing with the black powder regulations simply backs up my claim that were are being directed by fools in certain areas of government.

Bill K.

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2009, 09:03:15 PM »
Sorry Woodstock - no sarcasim mean - nor, I thought implyed. Sorry for the misunderstanding.  
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 09:05:43 PM by Daryl »

Woodstock

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2009, 09:36:55 PM »
Thanks Mad Monk. Your last sentence said it all. I just could not figure out why they are picking on BP when all the other stuff is just as versatile. As I said, it has been a long time since I have been involved with BP. I remember walking into Wally World or any sporting goods store and getting all the BP I wanted right off the shelf.
Daryl,
No offence taken. I have a nasty cold. It makes me a bit cranky. That is what I needed the 24 hr. decongestant for. I really chapped me to have to show a dr. license and sign my life away just to get a $3.00 pack  of relief.  I am afraid of what the future will bring in the coming months, not years, but months.
As always,
Many thank for all the help. This is a great site. I know I can always find and get good information each time I run into a problem or have a question.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2009, 10:57:05 PM »
This morning's mail brought me a small cardboard box that was marked "Scan me"
they are so @!*% careful aren't they.  Billions spent on detectors in foreign countries airports; but still a bomber waltzes onto an airliner with a stripper full of a liquid bomb that is as described 'easily detected.  In fact he went thru 2 airports that way.  I hope it changed him in to an 'it" when it went up in flames! >:( :(

If this be too political delete it!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 10:58:15 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 12:29:14 AM »
Woodstock, Have you attempted to buy lead lately?  >:(
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2009, 03:26:52 AM »
Lets keep this to the rules, boys. There are other forums which allow political unrest.  Nice, ain't I. ::)

Woodstock

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 06:37:44 PM »
No I have not tried to buy any lead lately. I have a bunch of RBs left over from years gone by. They look kind of rough and need some cleaning up but I think they will do fine.
Is there a problem with getting lead also? Sorry to be so ignorant about all this but it has been a long time.  :-[

dannybb55

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2009, 12:29:59 AM »
I went to the local (read ONLY ) gunshop in Carteret county, NC and Goex is impossible to get and they only sell the fake stuff during dear season. :-\ . I work with old boats and there is pure lead all around the yards for the asking. Somewhere yesterday I found a website that sells BP in 5 can boxes with Ups delivery so it is only a hundred bucks an order. I am starting to stock up. If there are any members near me let me know so we can split a case. My next big project is to make my own, I think, like in Foxfire Five. If we are all building and can't get powder and ball, what's the point? It'd be like building hotrods without gas.
 The lady at the shop said that surplus ammo is gone too. It is either heading to the Gulf or being destroyed for our SAFETY at depots in Europe.
 I'd rather be free than safe. 'NUF SAID.

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2009, 02:21:28 AM »
There are several outfits in the USA which will ship BP straight to your door. You need only call.  Graf's - Track - some others, etc.

roundball

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2009, 02:59:04 AM »

"...Somewhere yesterday I found a website that sells BP in 5 can boxes with Ups delivery so it is only a hundred bucks an order. I am starting to stock up..."


Nothing comes even close to the the price per can of having a case of Goex delivered to your door.

I've bought several cases from JJPyrotechnics in Moscow, PA...here is the Goex distributor location list:

http://goexpowder.com/distributors.html

One is over in the western mountains of NC (Advance, NC)  but that's a very long round trip for you, plus, would cost 3-4 times in gas, what the hazmat shipping fee is.
    
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 03:01:54 AM by roundball »

Ron T.

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2009, 12:38:56 PM »
The best price I've found on Goex black powder is $12.60 per pound delivered with freight and hazardous charges prepaid at Jack's Powder Keg... 25 pounds of Goex for $315 or $12.60 per pound delivered .

Here's the site:  http://www.jackspowderkeg.com/

This would be a good deal for a 6-12 shooters to go together and buy 25 pounds.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

dannybb55

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2009, 02:12:42 PM »
Thanks Ron.

northmn

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2009, 03:08:19 PM »
Looking att eh prices of BP in Grafs I can buy BP for about $18-$19 per pound which is a far cry from the 12.60, BUT I can order 5 pounds a time and get my choice of Graf's, GOEX, GOEX Express or Swiss, the Swiss is about $5 more spendy per pound and I can mix.  There are other choices but I have used this one.  Buying locally gives me GOEX at about $20.00 per pound.

DP

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2009, 05:32:56 PM »
6 to 12? - not going to do much shooting.

roundball

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2009, 08:48:30 PM »
With the Goex price and shipping increases that go into effect tomorrow, 1/1/2010, a delivered case from the Goex distributor I've been using will jump into the $330's.

This past June I was making a trip passing through PA, close to the distributor and make arrangements to stop in and meet the owner, as well as pick up two 25lb boxes of bulk Goex 3F (a plastic bag inside a heavy cardboard box)...$9.25/pound, for my Son to keep for us.

Got home and filled up a couple cases of empty Goex cans I'd been saving for this purpose, typed up / applied new Lot# & Date code stickers to cover the old #'s on the bottom of the cans.

Daryl

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2009, 08:56:12 PM »
Our CHEAP powder is $22.00 per can and $21.00 per loose in a bag - both 25 pound lots. Shipping (pickup) is extra and not legal in Canada.  The shipper for dangerous goods refuses to ship BP. They are the only ones licenced to carry it. Locally, it's almost $40.00 per pound.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2010, 01:02:18 AM »
Maybe I'm misremembering it--or just paranoid--but I seem to recall that it's extralegal to buy BP and "resell" it to friends and fellow club members. That right? If so, I'd be disinclined to discuss any plans along those lines hereabouts.  :-X

Too many folks forget that once you hit "send" or "submit," the message is completely out of your control. Ask Tiger Woods.  ;D
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2010, 01:17:24 AM »
According to info on the Track of the Wolf website:

" Club Officers may distribute powder to members and guests. Heads of families may distribute powder to family members and friends. You may not engage in the business of stocking and reselling black powder, unless you have a Federal Explosives License, available from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. They require ...."

roundball

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2010, 02:30:14 AM »
Yes, one person ordering a case to then be split up among others for no profit is legal...I actually posed this question to the ATF via Email to their contact info on their website and got the affirmative reply...I'll go dig out the Email and post it if anybody is interested because I saved it.

roundball

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2010, 02:52:03 AM »
My Email to the ATF and their answers interspered in BOLD.

The net of the two answers are:
1) Its illegal to sell a can to a somebody at the range who forgot and left his home, even if no profit is involved.
2) It's legal for one case to be ordered then split among among the group of prearranged buyer participants.
=======================================================

To: eps@atf.gov
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 6:12 PM
Subject: Clarification of "selling" the occasional can of black powder to a fellow hunter if he's run out

I’ve read a lot on the ATF website over the years trying to be certain that I operate within the law, and for example have learned that as an individual I can buy/keep up to 50lbs black powder for recreational purposes like my weekend shooting and hunting, without having to have a permit or license…the regs in general seem to make a distinction between recreational use and business use, like dealers, retailers, etc.  And several of us were discussing item #47 which states to the effect that it’s unlawful to sell black powder to someone without a permit or license…which has lead to these questions as we want to be sure we aren’t breaking the law.

Example #1
From time to time over the years there’s always the occasion where a fellow Flintlock shooter will show up at the range and realize he’s forgotten his powder, left it back at the house, etc…and someone will usually have an extra can in their shooting box and let the guy have it at whatever the cost was.
ANSWER
Yes – whenever black powder is sold the distributor must have a license to deal in explosives as required by 27 CFR 555.41 – 43.
   

Example #2
With all the shipping and handling fees, plus the HazMat fees, by far one of the least expensive ways to buy black powder is to buy it by the 25lb case. (25 1Lb cans)   And when somebody will be needing to order some more black powder, but not wanting the whole 25 lbs in a case, its not uncommon for 2-3 guys to agree to use all 25 cans but only one guy places the order of course, then they simply spilt up the cost according to however many 1 lb cans each guy wanted.
ANSWER
I would not interpret this as selling because there is a prior arrangement to split the order once received and one person is just ordering it for convenience purposes.  If an individual gets a portion of the order and then turns around and sells it to another individual then they would need a dealers license. 


In our opinion, those are not examples of somebody “selling black powder without a license” as I’m sure that the ATF reg was established for…they are not examples of somebody actually in business trying to seek out buyer to sell black powder to…not advertising to try and sell powder, etc…and of course in these examples no profit is involved…its just a couple of guys splitting a case of powder to get the most economical price, or helping a fellow shooter who forgot and left his powder home 50 miles away…they are just spontaneous circumstances that occasionally just come up.

We appreciate it very much if you could explain / clarify item #47...that it does or does not apply to these incidental exchanges between a couple of fellow shooters from time to time over the years.


Offline Kermit

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Re: Propellants?
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2010, 04:03:54 AM »
Now THAT'S a relief. I'm glad you were so thorough--and willing to share the clarification. Thanks!
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West