Learning engraving

[HighUintas]

I have a preshaped square graver and flat graver I got from MBS and a nice fine and extra fine DMT diamond stone. I've watched some videos and done some reading on the internet to learn to hand sharpen gravers.

I went at it for the first time last night, using the common hand sharpening method of sharpening the face first just by holding the graver by hand and going back and forth sideways, and I then used a 3/32 drill bit shank to lay the graver shank on and set the angle for the heel.

That was much much harder than it looks in videos. The face of the square graver is nowhere close to flat and I had a hard time keeping the graver shank flat on the drill bit to set the heel.

Then I tried cutting some lines and curves on a scrap mild steel sheet held by a c clamp on a block of wood in my bench vise.

This is so much harder than I thought!

I unfortunately don't have the funds at the moment to get the Lindsay template sharpening system.

Are there any recommendations for good resources? Books? Web sites I haven't found?

It would be great if there were some type of engraving class I could take that is located out west within driving distance. I know there's some held occasionally in the east, like at Log Cabin shop or some of the long rifle conventions. Is there anything like that located within 8 hours or so of salt lake City?

[mikeyfirelock]

If you can find a copy, “The  Art of Engraving”  by James B. Meek.   ……my copy has Brownells, Montezuma, Iowa as the publisher on the inside cover.   A very comprehensive and clearly explanatory work. Covers EVERYTHING involved in learning, set up, and doing.
( I still can’t engrave, though)

[Hungry Horse]

 What you really need to do is get the Hershel House videos. You will see him grind his homemade gravers on a grinding wheel, and then give them a couple of licks on a fine stone (maybe) and start engraving. You will see it’s not about high end tools. It about practice, and above all feeling what cutting smooth and correctly really feels like.  My first graver was made from a worn out chainsaw file, and my first hammer was a repurposed body and fender hammer. Your work can be anchored to a block in your vice and secured with plain old bondo. If you’re going to use this method for a good sized project a “T” shaped metal fixture should be fabricated to clamp in your vise. The Bondo can be popped off by a little heat from a torch. Also the production gravers are quite thin and tend to be a bit springy which won’t make cutting a smooth line any easier. Good luck.

Hungry Horse

[smart dog]

Hi,
John Schipper's book on engraving historic firearms is the best book to have.  Meek's book is not really all that helpful.  Also visit the "Engraver's Cafe"  online.  It can be very helpful.  The first key is to learn to sharpen your graver.  Nothing else matters at first.  I urge you to find the funds to invest in Lindsay templates.  They will solve half your problems.

dave

[Gaeckle]

Hi,
John Schipper's book on engraving historic firearms is the best book to have.  Meek's book is not really all that helpful.  Also visit the "Engraver's Cafe"  online.  It can be very helpful.  The first key is to learn to sharpen your graver.  Nothing else matters at first.  I urge you to find the funds to invest in Lindsay templates.  They will solve half your problems.

dave

What Dave says: get Schipper's book, don't even bother with the other one.

Are there any folks in your area that do any sort of engraving? If so, try to reach out  and ask if you can watch them doing an engraving. I find it very helpful when another shows their technique, then it's a light bulb moment: so that's how it's done! See if there is anybody close to you that will give you some pointers, some basic training.

As Dave said, the biggest hurdle is keeping the tool sharp. Good luck

[Jakob]

Ford Hallam is probably one of the best resources. Aimed at Japanese style work, but his fundamentals are extremely solid.

[HighUintas]

Thanks, gents.

I did happen to find another thread with information on Schippers book. I will make sure to acquire that when I can.

Gaeckle, I'm not aware of any builders or engravers in my area, other than an engraver near Logan, UT that does offer instruction, although it is fairly pricey. There's also good old Herb to the east of me, who I think has done engraving in the past. I'm not sure if he's able to do that work anymore, but I have been intending to give him a call recently anyway to see how he's doing so maybe I'll see if he's still able to do any engraving.

I'll keep fiddling around with what I have and consume some more information while I save for a sharpening template and Schippers book. Maybe I'll get the hand sharpening figured well enough to make it less intimidating.

I'll also check out those Hallam videos. Thanks!

I've been itching to build another rifle .... Some type of half stock (early Hawken or Rod England English sporting kit) but have to save awhile, do more research, and figure out how to find time to build another rifle. A year and half of staying up until 1:30AM aged me a bit, I think! I realized that I'd planned to put some engraving and maybe checkering on my Creamer/mountain flintlock I built, so I'd better get that done first.

[rich pierce]

On YouTube there are lots of videos on drawing scrolls that can be helpful for engravers and carvers. For those of us who are not gifted and have no training they are helpful.

[J.D.]

Try to find an old Lynton Mckenzie "Beginning Engraving" series. I thought it was pretty good, though I still can't engrave, for beans.

Some of the material mentioned might be available through interlibrary loan. IMHO, it's better to review expensive material available at various libraries, before spending your money on books and videos you won't get any appreciable information from.

[JTR]

Lindsay templates are worth twice the bucks to purchase and you'll be light years ahead on your sharpening.
John

[wormey]

I have absolutely no talent for engraving, but wish I had.  Highly suggest you get a copy of Wallace Gusler`s video on engraving.  It is germaine to longrifle work wherein I presume your real interest lies.  Very, very educational.  Wormey

[J. Talbert]

Lindsay templates are worth twice the bucks to purchase and you'll be light years ahead on your sharpening.
John

Agreed!
Jeff

[P.W.Berkuta]

Get the Lindsay graver sharping tool - the price of the tool is well worth it. At the cost of John Schipper book you will be spending the money that you could have purchased the Lindsay sharpening tool and started cutting lines. John Schipper book is ok if you want to look at pictures, but you can go to Lindsay's web site and see how it is done and ask questions. It's like having a teacher at your side. Spend the money and cry once - buy the book and end up spending more money later for the Lindsay sharpening tool and cry two or more times!

[Adrie luke]

Hello.

This video is a good start, the rest is practice.
Set subtitles to English.

https://youtu.be/4xpeiwJO59U?feature=shared

 https://youtu.be/WI0faGmdGbI?feature=shared

Adrie

[Nordnecker]

I’m certainly not an expert but I have managed to do an acceptable job of engraving on long rifles. It is hard to get the graver working properly. Once it has the correct geometry, it will work but it definitely takes practice to get a feel for it. I had my first minor success on brass. I just fastened brass scraps to T shaped blocks and held them in a bench vice. Get that C clamp out of your way. All brass doesn’t feel the same when engraving. I found steel to be much harder to cut and the tip would dig in too deep and raise a little burr that I couldn’t get past.
I bought a small piece of silver and it was an epiphany. It cut so easily and the angels sang…….

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here is an essay on learning to engrave I wrote 13 years ago (wow, where did the time go!).  It should help you figure out how to get going.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14623.msg137314#msg137314

dave

[smylee grouch]

The graves I bought SEEMED too small for me. I made one from an old 3 corner file that worked OK and was easier to handle.

[rich pierce]

Light and vision seem to be quite important to me. I’ve also started making the tips of my gravers smaller unlike Smylee - seems to help me stay on the intended line.

[paulitus]

Ditto Lindsey’s templates. They make it easy. Also, those little wood-backed diamond stones he sells come in handy for all sorts of other sharpening duties.

[Spalding]

Not to hijack the thread, but to those using the Lindsay system, what degree template do you recommend?
Is the 116* universal good or is one of the others available more useful? I’m mainly be using it for lettering and possibly lines.

Bob

[Blacksmoke]

HighUntas:  If Dayton WY. is in striking distance of where you are, come and see me, I teach hammer & chisel engraving. one on one in my shop. If this appeals to you PM me.  Thanks,  Hugh Toenjes

[rich pierce]

Not to hijack the thread, but to those using the Lindsay system, what degree template do you recommend?
Is the 116* universal good or is one of the others available more useful? I’m mainly be using it for lettering and possibly lines.

Bob

Most I know use the 90 degree template for long rifle work.

[smart dog]

Not to hijack the thread, but to those using the Lindsay system, what degree template do you recommend?
Is the 116* universal good or is one of the others available more useful? I’m mainly be using it for lettering and possibly lines.

Bob

Hi,
I use a 90 degree square graver, large and small, for most of my work.  The universal graver shape is very versatile, however, because of the wider angle at the tip, I have trouble seeing the actual tip when cutting.  Therefore, I use the 90 degree cutter.  I also use a small flat for back ground removal and to cut wider lines, a small round bottomed cutter to sculpt metal and cut shadow into 18th century style English engraving.  I use a 123 degree calligraphy graver for cutting the nicks in nick and dot borders.

Here is one example where I used 90 degree cutters (small and large) for the entire scene.



Here is an example showing the use of a round bottomed graver to cut relief in the rococo shell as well as the 123 degree cutter to form the nicks in the nick and dot border.



Here is an example in which I used a small flat and the wide graver to sculpt the raised border.



Each tool was well suited to the tasks and made the job go smoothly.  For most long rifle work, you can get by with a large and small 90 degree cutter and a small flat.  For lettering, you universal graver would be fine.  The wider angle allows you to vary the line thickness by a slight tilt of the tool.  That can accent lettering nicely.







dave

[JTR]

Those certainly look nice, Dave!
John

[flatsguide]

Sure do, John.
Richard