Author Topic: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets  (Read 2042 times)

Offline 120RIR

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They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« on: June 03, 2024, 06:45:09 AM »
The Busted Long Rifle Gods smiled on me again (I must have done something really good in a past life). I stumbled across this on Live Auctioneers with just a few hours to go and got it for less than I've spent on dinner for two in Napa (I'm almost embarrassed at this deal).  Barrel shortened fore and aft but a complete signature remaining and appears to be J. J. Sheets (presumably John Jacob).  The nice brass plate L. Rogers lock has nothing to do with the gun though - the lock is a single bolt and the rifle has two bolts one of which was recently filled with the same wood filler a previous owner started applying.  Any comments and thoughts would be appreciated and details on John Jacob Sheets would be great.  Oh, the auction included the silver star on the cheek piece so that's intact.  This particular Sheets was somewhat whimsical in his choice of metals...brass, copper acorn inlay on the comb, one barrel key escutcheon in silver, the other in brass...and the front blade sight is bone although I suppose that could be a post-shortening feature. 


























remove repeated lines


« Last Edit: June 03, 2024, 06:50:30 AM by 120RIR »

Offline 120RIR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2024, 06:56:43 AM »
Whoops...here's the signature and I forgot to mention the "1830" date on the wrist escutcheon.


Offline jdm

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2024, 04:17:15 PM »
Pretty darn cool ! I hope you get lucky again and it fits back good with out to much wood missing. The incised carving adds so much. Great find.   Jim
JIM

Offline JTR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2024, 07:57:45 PM »
That's a fine looking rifle, and what a find!
J Sheets, JJ Sheets, Father/son? I've found some info on the Sheets family, some of who moved to Ohio, although it's not entirely clear just who, and or when. I wonder if some here might have more info on these guys?
The guy was certainly a skilled maker, and it's amazing that something like this just pops up out of the blue!

First the Ferree rifle, and now this from 120RIR,,, time to head to Vegas!
John
John Robbins

Offline Avlrc

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2024, 09:45:57 PM »
Thats insane. Congratulations, you should bottle your luck.

 John Jacob was the son of gunsmith Philip Sheetz and the younger brother of gunsmith Martin Sheetz. Shepherdstown WV.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-sheetz-rifle/


Whiskers West Virginia Book.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2024, 10:13:43 PM by Avlrc »

Offline Jdbeck

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2024, 01:38:22 AM »
What a beautiful rifle. Glad it’ll be saved!

Offline DaveM

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2024, 02:45:47 AM »
Wonderful find - Congrats!

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2024, 03:10:14 AM »
Wow- I just cant help but ask, will you have this restored?

Offline 120RIR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2024, 03:27:46 AM »
Absolutely for the restoration.  I'm already in discussions with "the guy" :)  As for luck and Vegas, well, I was there a couple of weeks ago for what I can only imagine will be the last tour for the Rolling Stones.  The three original members are all 80 but they still put on a great show.  Maybe a bit of Vegas luck rubbed off on me...not with lottery tickets I'm afraid but I'll take what I can get!

Offline homerifle

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2024, 04:19:58 AM »
What a find!

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2024, 07:13:23 PM »
That's really nice.  So neat to see a rifle of this period with such quality carving and decoration.

Jim

Offline JTR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2024, 09:55:31 PM »
That's really nice.  So neat to see a rifle of this period with such quality carving and decoration.

Jim

It'd be really cool to see something like this pop out of your CNC machine!
John
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 11:42:25 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline bama

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2024, 11:07:16 PM »
What a wonderful find, its a great rifle and yes it should be properly restored. Congratulations

Jim Parker

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Offline wallace gusler

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2024, 03:45:14 PM »
In my opinion, the rifle shown above was made by John Sheets of Staunton VA, and not by John Jacob Sheetz of Shepherdstown VA. There is a great deal of difference in the work of the two gunmakers. John Sheets also made a pair of brass-barrelled pistols and even patented a nail-cutting machine.

    John Sheets of Staunton, VA, apprenticed under Simon Lauck of Winchester, VA, in 1787, then went back to Staunton in 1796. He posted an ad in the newspaper stating that his shop was open for business. I have seen about 25 of his rifles and handled quite a few of them. A good number of them had been re-stocked.

    Colonial Williamsburg owns a great John Sheets rifle that turned up in England. Its thumb piece has been filed off. It is possible that the rifle was owned by royalty because another John Sheets of closely related detail is privately owned in England, and it has the crest of Frederick, son of King George III, on the thumb piece.

    John Sheets, of Staunton, had a son or relative named Henry who signed his guns "H Sheets".  Perhaps the initial after the "J" on this rifle was an "H" or another relative who could have been trained by John.

    In 1812, Captain Isaac Frame of the Augusta Militia wrote the Gov of VA that "John Sheets was as grand a genius as the world affords." He, Isaac Frame, stated that he had ordered a rifle from John Sheets equipped with a spring bayonet.

    Note, John Sheets preferred 12 threads in a breech pin while the government recommended 3 threads!

    The rifle posted is one of John Sheets's finest rifles. It needs and deserves excellent conservation work.

    Wallace Gusler

Offline bama

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2024, 05:35:42 PM »
Thanks Wallace. I was hoping you would comment on this rifle. I knew that you had done a good bit of research on the Sheets and Sheetz families. It's very easy to get them confused.

Jim
Jim Parker

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Offline JTR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2024, 06:23:28 PM »
In my opinion,

Thanks very much for posting all this very interesting information!

Could you please point out a couple of the major differences that differentiate John from John Jacob?

Thanks, John
John Robbins

Offline Avlrc

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2024, 08:37:32 PM »
Here is a couple Staunton Sheets.  They are a couple in Whiskers books.

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_jshs.html

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_hsheets.html
« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 09:04:44 PM by Avlrc »

Offline JTR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2024, 09:34:19 PM »
Here is a couple Staunton Sheets.  They are a couple in Whiskers books.

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_jshs.html

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_hsheets.html

It's certainly an interesting rifle!
I saw those two on Aspen Shade, and also the ones in Whiskers books, and noticed the similarities, and differences too.
One thing I noticed regarding J. Sheets was the use of a horizontally positioned set trigger adjustment screw (usually, but not always), instead of the usual vertically positioned adjuster. Also differences in side plates and carving.

Which ever one it is, it's still an amazing find! 

John
John Robbins

Offline Avlrc

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2024, 10:03:48 PM »
Great find, for sure.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2024, 09:06:38 PM »
They are indeed. Wonderful rifle.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline wallace gusler

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2024, 05:51:00 PM »
Re: John Sheets of Staunton, Virginia, vs. John Jacob Sheetz of Shepherdstown, Virginia (now West Virginia) -- the question of identifying and separating their work.

There are a great many differences between these schools, way too many for a quick answer. I have documented about 20 rifles from the Shepherdstown Sheetz family:
Two by Philip Shatz (his spelling) — a pre-Rev wood box rifle and a Rev War period brass box rifle carbine.
Rifles by Philip’s sons:
Martin: three relief carved examples (two signed “M. Sheetz”)
John Jacob Sheetz (stamped “J. Sheetz”): four relief carved rifles
William, the youngest: two, both signed “W. M. Sheetz” in script. These are fine rifles without carving.

The easiest way to separate the two schools is by studying the engraving. Shepherdstown engraving is 98% executed using a square graver; on rare occasions (on shell features) they used a radius graver. The Winchester school founded by Adam Haymaker and his family [John Sheetz apprenticed to Simon Lauck, 1787 to 1796, in Winchester] used four different gravers—square graver, radiused graver, two sizes of square end gravers, and liner gravers. The square-end gravers were used to cut chip borders usually of the “Berain” style popular today, so-called “nick and dot.” These gravers (several widths) are also used to cut “wriggle work” features. They used the liner graver to cut four or five petalled flowers that radiate from wood screws, etc. The liner is also used to cut chips, forming a scalloped effect inside or outside the curve of “C” and “S” scrolls.

The Winchester school has the most complex engraving tool kit among Kentucky rifle makers. The posted rifle has carving based on Winchester Haymaker/ Lauck tradition and is clearly not associated with the Sheetz gunmakers of Shepherdstown. The patch box designs of the Winchester school and the Sheetz Shepherdstown school are different. An exception is the on late (circa 1825) W. M. Sheetz side pieces, where he used variation of the closed “C” and “S” scroll and open and “C” and “S” scroll designs developed in Winchester in the 1780s.  By its late date these designs are all over Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio, etc.  Shepherdstown Sheetzes do not use the concealed hinge segment hidden box “touch pin” that appears to have been invented in the Haymaker shop. In Winchester, boxes are held with wood screws. Shepherdstown box side pieces are nailed on. I will stop here—there are many more differences. As I remember, there are 30 some Sheets (and Sheetz) rifle makers in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Virginia over three generations.

W.B.G

PS: The Philip “Sheetz” that Shumway cites in his book on Schroyers as being apprenticed to George Ungefer in Hanover, PA, is not the Shepherdstown gunsmith.  Philip Sheetz, gunsmith, was in Frederick County, Virginia, when the man that Shumway cited was starting his apprenticeship. I almost forgot that John Sheets and the majority of the Winchester-made long rifles have side plates with counter-bored lock screws. It appears from the photos that your side plate may be missing.



Offline Avlrc

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2024, 08:30:00 PM »
The Shepherdstown, WV Sheetz family are of German descent. A few years back, I read somewhere that the Augusta, VA, Sheets family is of Scottish descent. 

Offline JTR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2024, 04:50:59 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to post this very interesting information on the various Sheets way of doing things.
I'm sure others are just as interested in this as I am!
Thanks, John
John Robbins

Offline 120RIR

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Re: They're Still Out There Part II - J.J. Sheets
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2024, 02:04:32 AM »
A question for Mr. Gusler - Since, based at least in part on the engraving technique, this appears to be a John Sheets of Staunton, how did he normally sign his rifles?  Did he have a middle name and use a middle initial?  There appears to be a remnant character stem between what is presumably the first "J" and the "Sheets".  Or, might this rifle be the work of a close relative, similarly trained the Winchester school?