Author Topic: Rust blue boiling tank.  (Read 2159 times)

Offline jm190

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2024, 12:41:06 AM »
Brilliant! Much better than hanging parts in the shower with the hot water running while the wife is giving you stink eye!

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2024, 02:35:27 AM »
Taylor's tank.











host photo
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline DanL

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2024, 02:52:19 AM »
A WORD OF CAUTION:

I noticed several folks here mentioned using galvanized steel over a heat source. Galvanizing is Zinc. zinc’s smoke point is ~250 degrees F. Zinc smoke is highly toxic. Boiling water is typically 212 degrees F. I am not sure by boiling water that you are reaching Zinc’s smoke point on the container but please be careful. Choose a container other than galvanized steel.

Example:   A noted master blacksmith and guru on a popular blacksmith forum died from zinc poisoning a few years back. Unknown to him there was some galvanizing in some steel he was forging. Killed him quickly in his shop. Yes, he was using high temps but the result of smoked Zinc is critical !!

Please be careful. I actually like a few of you folks and prefer you not go by Zinc poisoning.

Kindest regards,

DanL

« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 04:28:04 PM by DanL »
From God's Farm in Alabama; God bless America & "Alba gu Brath !!"

Offline kutter

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2024, 02:58:26 AM »
What are people doing to protect the barrel,s bore during the process ?        :-\

I've never used anything to protect the bore during rust blue or brown.
Express or Cold rust, doesn't matter.
Wipe it out dry to start. No oil in the bore as with any other surface on the part.
No rusting soln in the bore of course..

Never had the bore or chambers damaged.
I usually run a clean dry patch through the bore after the bbl comes out of the boiling water tank and has dried off of it's own heat. Just to make sure there's no droplets in the bore.

When doing Damascus finish I do coat the bores with plain old shellac.
A heavy coating with a cleaning rod w/a rag on the slotted tip.
Several passes, let it set up,,then more again to make sure it's covered.

Clean off the muzzle and breech of any run over from the application.

The Damascus finish requires the bbls go into an etch dip and you have to protect the bore from that.
The Shellac holds up perfectly in the boiling water tank even with the many, many cycles needed for Dmascus finish.
Just to be on the safe side I admit to recoating the bores over the orig stuff at about cycle 8 or 9 just to be safe.
It can take 15 or so cycles for some Damascus finish projects.

I didn't always do the recoating, but something told me it might be a wise thing to do!
That Ferric Chloride etch works extremely fast even at the weak % I use it.

....So if you wanted to protect the bore with something easy to use just to be on the safe side,,a heavy coating of shellac will do it.
Remove it afterwards with lacq thinner, alcohol or even ammonia cleaner.
You'll be surprised how tough it is to get out of there. But it will disolve and leave the bore clean with some elbow work.

Offline Manitou

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2024, 03:19:22 AM »
Kutter,
Using shellac is a great idea! I have used clear lacquer in the past because I also build musical instruments, but must confess that I haven't used anything to protect the bore during the last few times that I have rust blued.

DanL,
Thanks so much for the warning on the zinc fumes. We all love our hobbies,but no one needs to go on to the other side because of some heinous chemical released by the heat of the bluing tank or forge.
Bits of information such as this are a very good reason to belong to this forum. Collectively we are all enhanced.

Offline Manitou

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2024, 05:30:11 AM »
Daryl,
Thanks for showing your brothers bluing tank. I have often wanted to make a tank from a propane gas grill burner, but have never gotten around to it.
I did have a 4" piece of black iron pipe welded up to make a horizontal tank that I could heat on my gas grill with a propane torch on each end, but that just didn't work out for me and took forever to heat, even with MAPP gas. Maybe my technique was flawed.
Anyway, I like your method very much and may try it in the future, but, my way has worked well here so far.
Thanks for showing it! You and your brother are some of the reasons why I pay close attention to this forum.

Offline Jakob

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2024, 07:33:32 AM »




Dave, how are you making those stamped dots?

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2024, 04:50:29 PM »
A WORD OF CAUTION:

I noticed several folks here mentioned using galvanized steel over a heat source. Galvanizing is Zinc. zinc’s smoke point is ~250 degrees F. Zinc smoke is highly toxic. Boiling water is typically 212 degrees F. I am not sure by boiling water that you are reaching Zinc’s smoke point on the container but please be careful. Choose a container other than galvanized steel.

Example:   A noted master blacksmith and guru on a popular blacksmith forum died from zinc poisoning a few years back. Unknown to him there was some galvanizing in some steel he was forging. Killed him quickly in his shop. Yes, he was using high temps but the result of smoked Zinc is critical !!

Please be careful. I actually like a few of you folks and prefer you not go by Zinc poisoning.

Kindest regards,

DanL

Good caution. The sides and bottom of Taylor's tank are stainless steel. Only the top is galvanized(I think it might be) & does not reach anywhere near critical heat.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline bobw

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2024, 05:57:58 PM »
What kutter said about protecting the bore is ok.  I talked to Mike Lee about plugging the bore while rust bluing and he said he doesn’t plug his anymore either.

Offline davec2

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2024, 06:03:37 PM »
Jakob,

The dots are fairly easy to form, if a little tedious.  To do a row of dots, I cut parallel lines with a 90 degree graver.  Depending on the size of the dots, I may widen the cuts with a triangular jeweler's file keeping the outer edge of the cut nearly vertical and tapering the inside (the part that will become the dots) toward the center line.  The center section is now divided into tiny squares, again cut with the graver.  Once the squares are evenly formed, I clip all the corners off with a narrow flat graver which leaves a row of tiny octagons.  I have a series of punches that I made from 1/4" diameter oil hardening tool steel rod.  The ends are tapered to a point and then, using spherical dental burs of various sizes, I cut a sharp edged "cup" in the end of the tool.  The tool is then hardened.  Placing the tool over the little octagons and tapping with a engraving hammer finishes forming a smooth round dot.

The punches are actually called "beading" punches and can be purchased fairly inexpensively.....

https://www.riogrande.com/product/glardon-vallorbe-beading-tool-set-23-piece/113704GP/?code=113704

but these are a little on the small size.  You can also make a beading punch out of a commercial nail set.  Or, if you are a little crazy (as I am), you can purchase a beading tool forming block like this one....

https://www.riogrande.com/product/beading-block2/113006GP/?code=113006   or this one    https://www.riogrande.com/product/beading-block3/113007GP/?code=113007

Hope this helps.

David
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline davec2

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2024, 07:56:30 AM »
DanL,

Can you send me a reference on the "smoke point" of zinc ?  I work with it a lot and I can't imagine zinc oxide being produced at 250 F.  In a galvanizing plant they have giant open tanks of molten zinc ....and it melts at 787 F !!!  (And the tanks are hotter than that.  No toxic smoke).  Zinc oxide is produced during torch cutting and welding of galvanized steel....or in melting brass...and it is true it is not good to breath in large quantities.  But there is absolutely no danger of producing zinc oxide boiling water in a galvanized tank.  Just don't want people to be fearful of things they need not be fearful of.   ;)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 08:43:49 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Jakob

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2024, 08:49:10 AM »
Jakob,

The dots are fairly easy to form, if a little tedious.  To do a row of dots, I cut parallel lines with a 90 degree graver.  Depending on the size of the dots, I may widen the cuts with a triangular jeweler's file keeping the outer edge of the cut nearly vertical and tapering the inside (the part that will become the dots) toward the center line.  The center section is now divided into tiny squares, again cut with the graver.  Once the squares are evenly formed, I clip all the corners off with a narrow flat graver which leaves a row of tiny octagons.  I have a series of punches that I made from 1/4" diameter oil hardening tool steel rod.  The ends are tapered to a point and then, using spherical dental burs of various sizes, I cut a sharp edged "cup" in the end of the tool.  The tool is then hardened.  Placing the tool over the little octagons and tapping with a engraving hammer finishes forming a smooth round dot.

The punches are actually called "beading" punches and can be purchased fairly inexpensively.....

https://www.riogrande.com/product/glardon-vallorbe-beading-tool-set-23-piece/113704GP/?code=113704

but these are a little on the small size.  You can also make a beading punch out of a commercial nail set.  Or, if you are a little crazy (as I am), you can purchase a beading tool forming block like this one....

https://www.riogrande.com/product/beading-block2/113006GP/?code=113006   or this one    https://www.riogrande.com/product/beading-block3/113007GP/?code=113007

Hope this helps.

David

Very helpful, thanks! Definitely a winter project!

Offline DanL

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2024, 02:47:59 PM »
@davec2 and all.  I misread my reference to the smoke point of zinc.. The smoke point of Zinc is higher by some margin. However, my word of Caution still stands. Combining Heat sources and Galvanizing should be avoided for caution/ safety sake. There are other inexpensive choices to work with as have been presented here. I apologize if I have scared anyone. Accidental death from zinc poisoning is scary.

There are many concerns and references about Zinc poisoning on the Iforgeiron site. The guru of this site is the one that died a few years back from zinc poisoning.


Be safe.
From God's Farm in Alabama; God bless America & "Alba gu Brath !!"

Offline foresterdj

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2024, 04:50:04 PM »
Have had galvanic poisoning a couple times, from welding and torch work, very bad, do not risk it.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2024, 06:30:27 PM »
Anyone who has annealed ctg. cases has heated them to red hot or higher, accidentally. Ctg. brass contains zinc. I have read that overheating them burns the zinc from them, over annealing them. I've not heard of danger such as zinc poisoning. Interesting.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2024, 08:51:49 PM »
Well, looks like I may die doing this project. Bought a piece of galvanized rain gutter. Cut to size and soldered on two end caps. Worked like a charm.
Outside on a camp stove I guess. Should make boiling easier, it’s 114 here today.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline foresterdj

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2024, 05:59:36 AM »
Good positive ventilation is a safe guard, same as for casting balls.

Offline rick landes

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2024, 06:35:27 PM »
A strange twist on the using of distilled water for the boiling. I was without any and decided I would use the water from an artesian well. I boiled the parts as normal and when I pulled them out of the water the surface looked like it had been dipped in a fine limestone powder. Muttering to myself about my adventure I dried and carded the parts as normal on a fine wire carding wheel. I found the most even finish and I think it was tougher than the normal...I am thinking the limestone type particles may have helped with the conversion to the black oxide....
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Rust blue boiling tank.
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2024, 08:51:14 PM »
The lid for my tank is aluminum.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.