Author Topic: Non-lead round ball  (Read 2043 times)

Offline teakmtn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Non-lead round ball
« on: June 30, 2024, 11:28:17 PM »
Gentlemen, I finally was able to score a pretty good deer tag. Unfortunately it's in California where there is a lead ban in place. It's during the general rifle/any weapon season but I have an area that should not be too many folks. I should have my new Henry Scroll Guard by then in 58 Caliber. My question is what non-lead round ball should I consider, for accuracy and deformation. With 58 Cal, that last should not be a consideration I'm guessing. Also, what powder load range to start out with as I develop a load?
Thanks in advance,
Doug T.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2024, 02:55:02 AM »
I suggest you google ITX in Cal. and see if they make a .562" ball for you. That would be about perfect for a .58 and allow a decent patch
lubed with mink oil, Neetsfoot oil or some other concoction.
For deer, use the most accurate load. It might be 75gr. of 2F or 130gr. 2F.
You need to find some non-lead balls and find a load for them.
Good luck.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2024, 04:57:18 PM »
What would happen if you just went ahead and used the lead balls?

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2024, 05:00:23 PM »
If checked, a charge PLUS likely lose his rifle. That is what would happen here, if the laws were the same.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19373
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2024, 05:19:38 PM »
Just spit balling here I wonder how tin would work. The challenge with a muzzleloader is that wardens can’t just look at the cartridge box, so they could be suspicious of anything home-cast.
Andover, Vermont

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7862
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2024, 05:29:22 PM »
I was wondering about tin or pewter as well. I have bought 562 ( 9\16) brass round balls but that won't " fly" I suppose. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 04:20:09 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2024, 05:57:33 PM »
Last I knew, CA required "certification" that ammunition was lead free (well, <1% lead), and that certification had only been granted to commercial firms. 

Casting with any of the alternate materials available requires changes in casting temps/techniques and in expectations.  Tin was particularly problematic: I had trouble getting consistent weights with all the alternates I tried (though further refinement in casting techniques might have reduced or resolved this), but tin was the worst.  The lead-free metal offered by Rotometals (an alloy of bismuth/tin/antimony IIRC) required casting at lower temps (<500 degrees), paying particular attention to mould temperature, and longer waits before cutting the sprue.  At longer ranges I suspect the velocity loss is going to be a significant factor.

Performance-wise, all alternates were harder and less-dense than lead.  As a consequence, they all shot lower and lost velocity faster than lead.  No obturation was noted: balls shot into a snowbank and recovered in spring mic'd the same as when fired. 

I tested several alternates while doing some control shooting of feral hogs and whitetail deer.  My test gun was my .50 cal GRRW Leman.  Tin showed some deformation but minimal expansion when bone was struck.  Rotometals' offering basically disintegrated when major bone was struck.  Both performed adequately (no game was lost) but I hunt close: out of a dozen animals, none were taken past 25 yards. 

Offline Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2024, 06:50:23 PM »
what if ya carried a bag full of what ever they require, but had just one lead ball in the gun?  If ya saw someone coming just fire it and say ya missed what ever critter yer hunting.
I know it sound deceitful, but when yer dealing with certain folks ya might have to be.

Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 08:23:54 PM by rich pierce »

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2024, 10:14:51 PM »
Recommending people violate the law, even if you disagree with the law, is generally not a good idea, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thread gets locked because of it. Why don't we stick to recommendations that allows teakmtn to legally hunt. This is after all what he requested.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2024, 12:27:45 AM »
There's no excuse for not following the statutes.  The changes might be a pain in the posterior, but they are doable.  The certification process looks like it is now available for private individuals and can be done online; no fee was listed for certification.  Might take 30 minutes to fill out the form if you don't speak bureaucrat.

Rotometals' lead-free alloy is ~$15/lb; that would yield 25-30 .562 round balls.  A Lee mould for the .562 ball will run about $45 delivered, so a DIY approach would cost about $1/each for the first hundred, and $.60/each for subsequent balls.  Expensive (compared to lead) but comparable (or less than) many jacketed bullets. 

As for buying the lead-free balls, I couldn't find a commercial source for .562 balls.  If available, I'd expect them to sell somewhere in the range of $1.50-$2/each.

Offline HSmithTX

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2024, 12:48:11 AM »
I'd consider a lead free bullet if I had to use lead free,  at least then you can get back to the roundball sectional density and get some weight back......

Offline Jeff Murray

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2024, 05:05:04 AM »
Have you considered trying to cast copper?    It is lighter than lead but will deform.  Several unmentionable manufacturers offer copper solids for large game.  You may get a little better muzzle velocity but lose it faster down range.  You may also find that they shoot a little high with the same powder charge. 

Offline Kurt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132

Offline 45dash100

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2024, 08:50:06 AM »
https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/brass/0-5625-brass-ball-260-grade-200-pack-of-20/pid/20418       (?)

I actually just purchased a bunch of these a few weeks ago from this exact seller.  I plan to use them for a ball mill, not ammunition, but it's a funny coincidence.

Grabbed the calipers and measured 10 of them.  Every single one was .5620-.5625 in every direction I checked.  That's pretty darned consistent.





Don't have a .58 to test fire them though.

Offline Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1394
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2024, 04:16:36 PM »
Sorry guys, I apologize for ever asking the question regarding the law.  It was not my intent to open that can of worms.

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2024, 05:14:22 PM »
ITX lead free roundball IS certified by California DFG. We made sure that happened back in 2009.

I don't think they make .58 cal though.

Try molding your own 80% Bismuth and 20 % tin. It is also certified by CA DFG by Rotometals.

That works too.

Ken
Galations 2:20

Offline teakmtn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2024, 07:35:41 PM »
Thank you for all the input. Unfortunately ITX does not come in 58 Caliber. That would have been the easy choice. Maybe the solid brass round balls, but it looks like I'm going to have to get myself set up to mold my own utilizing the Rotometals offerings. I have only done campfire running balls with a primitive ladle and mold. I'll go with the advised .562. Thanks again everyone for your advice.
Doug T.

Offline dadybear1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2024, 07:54:02 PM »
THERE YOU GO---LEAD BALL WILL PASS THROUGH SO WHATS IN YOUR BAG/NONLEAD-ECT WILL WORK.. JUST CHECK ACCURACY

Offline ScottH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 567
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2024, 08:58:35 PM »
For what it is worth...
On another muzzleloading forum, a member there tried the solid brass balls with a good patch in a side lock muzzleloader and shot whitetail deer with the load, as I recall it was a complete side to side pass through and a dead deer. Whether or not they are legal to use in California I have no idea.

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2024, 02:02:15 AM »
I would suspect a brass ball will have the same accuracy challenges that ITX has. Engaging the rifling is relegated to whatever patch you use and that is the rub.

Back in 2009 when I was testing 80/20 bismuth/tin alloy I found it did pretty well. And I could cast it like lead. The trick is to get just enough tin in there to keep the bismuth together. Bismuth is brittle without a significant amount of tin added. The other deal with bismuth is it EXPANDS when it cools. So the finished roundball will be slightly larger than a lead roundball coming out of the same mold.

Lead is a very unique element and rather hard to duplicate. Unless you used soft gold maybe. That might actually be perfect. LOL.

Ken
Galations 2:20

Offline BJH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1685
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2024, 02:43:24 AM »
260 brass alloy balls would qualify. But no certification. Even though it’s a accepted commercial alloy. Standardized at less than .07 percent lead. A fellow by the handle of Round ball experimented with these and glass marbles. And hunted with the brass balls successfully. I’m sure his threads can be searched on the other muzzloading forum. I followed the threads because of the possibility of lead bans. BJH
BJH

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2024, 03:31:55 AM »
I know it was not difficult to have it certified as a CA approved non-lead projectile. If I recall correctly was simply a matter of filling out a form and sending it in.

K
Galations 2:20

Offline okawbow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 889
  • West Tennessee/ Southern Illinois
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2024, 02:31:05 PM »
I’ve seen where some people coat bullets with powder coat paint and bake them. They can add up to a few thousands of an inch to the diameter. They buy the powder from Harbor freight and bake them in a toaster oven. A few coats of paint may provide something for the patch to “grab” onto. Might be worth a try.

I also wondered if one could mix some of the new #9 or smaller super heavy shot like that found in turkey loads, into some tin and melt that and mold it. The right mix could be a similar weight to a lead ball. I assume the melted mix would have to be stirred every time before pouring into the mold. It may also be possible to fill the mold with the shot, and then pour in the tin to hold it all together. Molten tin fills spaces vey well. Larger size shot might be better in that case to allow the tin to flow.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 02:35:44 PM by okawbow »
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2233
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2024, 03:01:12 PM »
The solution to this conundrum is simple. Smaller ball, heavier patch. Recently I used a .530 ball, double patched with .024 canvas in a 58caliber Rice barrel. I was shooting at an 8 inch gong at fifty yards. Hit center.
Granted this was only one shot. There was no experimentation no change in powder charge. Another fellow had to do the same thing with a .50 cal rifle using .440 balls he used four .015 patches to make up the difference. He also hit center.
This I know works with hard balls made with wheel weights. Smaller balls heavy patching. The ball patch combination has to be tight, but it cannot cut the patching.
The only problem I see with the ITX balls is that they are expensive. So, experimentation will cost you.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18317
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Non-lead round ball
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2024, 05:47:04 PM »
Thank you for all the input. Unfortunately ITX does not come in 58 Caliber.

 Could you take some ITX balls, melt them down and cast the size you need?

   Tim