L&R lock replacement

[sghart3578]

I am looking at a rifle with an L&R classic lock on it.  I have read mixed reviews on their locks.  This is a 2 year old build so I assume the lock is fairly new. 

What are your opinions on this lock and does anyone make one that is a close to drop in replacement?

Thanks in advance for your time.

[elk killer]

L&R locks are the very bottom of the lock producers
sure you hear they have good repair service
but why do so many need to be sent back?
pay that much for something it should work and work well
last classic lock i had anything to do with was sent back twice for mainspring issues
still isnt right,
dont know of anything close to drop in replacement
maybe a Chambers gun makers lock

[Steeltrap]

I have two rifles with L&R locks. One is a Leman and the other a youth build that I put the Manton lock on.

When I built my Leman I polished up all lock "moving contact" points and it's been working since 2018.

The Manton, which is a smaller lock with very compact components, OTOH gave me fits. I had to send it back twice. Once my fault, once their fault. But once all was worked out the lock works just fine.

If you're looking at the rifle in person (not over the internet) ask the seller if you can bring the lock to full cock and dry fire it ten times in a row. See how well it sparks and performs. Check the hammer to insure it's nice and tight and doesn't wobble. The frizzen may or may not have some wobble (side to side) but unless it's really loose, that won't hurt performance.

My $0.02.

[Bob Roller]

The L&R locks have a real potential and I used their external parts for a "chassis"and made precise mechanisms for them.They mostly went to Germany for target pistols and percussion Schuetzen rifles.I hope someone will do this again but now I am done with lock making.
The American market for a quality lock of any kind was very low and in that time frame most would rather contend with lock failures than pay for one that worked well.Fine wood,butt plate and trigger guard,good barrel and low end locks were the ideas at that time.
   I thank L&R for their willingness to sell the external parts to me and their externals are very good and a remake on the internal parts which IS the locks "engine" is overdue.One more item,The cast and problematic mainsprings have been replaced by much better ones made from "spring steel"strips or cut from a sheet.
Bob Roller
       

[alacran]

I have a Bucks County rifle with an L&R classic lock on it. The rifle has a single trigger on it. I mostly just polished the internals on it in the course of inletting it into the mortise. The lock in my opinion is just L&R's version of a large siler lock. I have won many trail walks with it and have killed four elk with this rifle. The lock has never given me any problems.

[Dave Marsh]

I personally would buy the gun if i really liked it.  If the lock becomes as issue, I would send it to Brad Emig for a tune rather than try and replace it.  I have two guns with L&R locks, and both work great after Brad fixed/tuned them up.  My opinion only and good luck.     

[Bob Roller]

As I remember,the biggest fly in the ointment WAS the cast mainsprings and I did get a number of requests to make new ones but repairing other makers locks was never on my list of things to do.One major problem with a cast mechanism was foundrys that had little concept of QUALITY CONTROL! L.C.Rice told me a foundry owner told him "WE do production,NOT quality control". THAT's not a reassuring statement.Actually MAKING a lock mechanism combines the skill sets of a machinist.tool maker,blacksmith and village idiot for doing it to begin with .The lack of quality control by any supplier can be fatal to a business and reflects a poor attitude in any venue and extends their low end ideas to those who want/need better.
Bob Roller 

[Roger B]

Buy the gun if you like it & send the lock to Brad Emig if it gives you any problems.  What matters is the gun as a whole. Will the owner let you shoot it pre-purchase?
Roger B.

[Mike Brooks]

I built a Lehigh a couple years ago with an L&R classic. It worked fine right out of the box, didn't have to do anything with it.

[Daryl]

I put their Dickert lock on a rifle and it was flawless from the start. Extremely fast lock with great sparking. That was about 10 yrs. ago.
My squirrel rifle has their DursEgg lock, tuned by Taylor. It also is a great little lock.

[Bigmon]

Sort of a $#@* shoot.  I have used a couple L&R's and never had a problem.  But when one hears so many negative opinions and experiences, there must be at least some truth to it.
Where there is smoke, there is fire?

[Bob Roller]

Sort of a $#@* shoot.  I have used a couple L&R's and never had a problem.  But when one hears so many negative opinions and experiences, there must be at least some truth to it.
Where there is smoke, there is fire?

I remember the late T.K.(Tom)Dawson showing the owners of L&R some fine antique locks and one I made and the answer was that production expedients took preference over everything and the level of quality control he showed them would bankrupt a government.
That was probably 50+ years ago and the lock had to be cheap.At that point in time the main springs were cast and some broken springs knocked the bottom off the lock mortise when they broke at fully cocked.When better quality springs started being used a lot of the problems stopped.More precise fitting of the two tumbler shafts  would be another step forward but then few old American locks had any fine detailing .No need for it on guns that were seldom fired.
Bob Roller                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[Seth Isaacson]

I have heard people complain of the L&R locks, but I have one of their "classic conversion" locks on my .38 caliber rifle and have never had any issues. A Locks & Stuff Siler on my pistol has been repaired by the good folks at Chambers twice. No company is perfect.

[Dphariss]

I have heard people complain of the L&R locks, but I have one of their "classic conversion" locks on my .38 caliber rifle and have never had any issues. A Locks & Stuff Siler on my pistol has been repaired by the good folks at Chambers twice. No company is perfect.

Right now if I were the buy a L&R I would do so with the idea it would need significant shop time to be safe and useable. Based on the last two I have seen on guns and one I used about 10-12 years back after what would be virtually impossible rework for the average guy buying a lock.
If the lock works good its probably at least useable. If it has the slightest hitch I would figure it needed significant work.

[wattlebuster]

You asked so here it is. RUN an let it be someone else's problem an find you a gun with a Chambers lock on it.

[sghart3578]

Thank you fellas for your input.  I have decided to pass on this rifle.  I have a soft spot for po' boys but I don't want a project.

I do have a nice Woodsrunner on the way from one of the members of this forum.

That should give me plenty of shooting fun.

[Bob Roller]

I have heard people complain of the L&R locks, but I have one of their "classic conversion" locks on my .38 caliber rifle and have never had any issues. A Locks & Stuff Siler on my pistol has been repaired by the good folks at Chambers twice. No company is perfect.

Right now if I were the buy a L&R I would do so with the idea it would need significant shop time to be safe and useable. Based on the last two I have seen on guns and one I used about 10-12 years back after what would be virtually impossible rework for the average guy buying a lock.
If the lock works good its probably at least usable. If it has the slightest hitch I would figure it needed significant work.

I don't recall any safety issues with L&R locks they did have major problems with broken mainsprings.These springs and internal lock components were the products of indifferent quality control by foundries that said the did production and not quality control.There was NO intention on the part of the owners of L&R make a low end lock at any point in time.In 1955(I think),Chet Shoults in Lapeer,Michigan offered a flint lock that was later found to be all high quality castings except the screws.The moulds that made this possible cost $5000 in that time frame and may still exist. I used a good number of the external parts of the Shoults Ketland and recall no rejects.I have told rhis before and perhaps a mafor upgrade in the tooling for the internal parts of their locks.The internals ARE THE LOCK.
Bob Roller                     

[Mick C]

I have only had one rifle with an L&R lock. No matter what I did it would not spark. Perhaps if I had them to reharden the frizzen that would have helped but I traded the gun before I  had any work done on it.

After that experience I decided that I would never buy a rifle with one of their locks again. Too bad since they are about the only place to find double throated cocks.  Has anyone ever gotten one of their replacement cocks and fitted to say a Chambers lock?

[Bob Roller]

Once in a while I would make up a lock with their double throat cock and  a Chambers late Ketland and it looked good and worked fine.
I did make a custom mechanism for the Chambers plate with a linked mainspring.

Bob Roller

[Martin S.]

Once in a while I would make up a lock with their double throat cock and  a Chambers late Ketland and it looked good and worked fine.
I did make a custom mechanism for the Chambers plate with a linked mainspring.

Bob Roller

Bob, I am very grateful to have the double throated cock lock that you made for me.  I will either put it on a full stock plains style rifle, or perhaps a Leman rifle.  Will you be at CLA this year?

[Bob Gerard]

People tend to talk much more loudly about their negative experiences more so than when something works as it should. I suspect the the vast majority of L&R Lock users are satisfied with them.

[Bob Roller]

Once in a while I would make up a lock with their double throat cock and  a Chambers late Ketland and it looked good and worked fine.
I did make a custom mechanism for the Chambers plate with a linked mainspring.

Bob Roller

Bob, I am very grateful to have the double throated cock lock that you made for me.  I will either put it on a full stock plains style rifle, or perhaps a Leman rifle.  Will you be at CLA this year?
[/quote

Martin,
I am not sure if I will get to the CLA this year.My wife of 55 years has some health issues that make me uneasy about leaving her alone..Right now it's radical blood pressure and medication does little.It is 2 hour drive on I-64 all the way.thank you for asking and
I enjoy our conversations about aitcraft even id it is at a show dedicated to muzzle loading guns,
Bob Roller

[Martin S.]

Bob,

I am sorry about your wife's health issues, I will keep you and her in my prayers.

Martin

[Bob Roller]

Bob,

I am sorry about your wife's health issues, I will keep you and her in my prayers.

Martin
Thank you and please do keep us in your prayers.
Bob Roller

[WonkyEye]

L&R T/C RPL lock clip and pics link posted below
https://imgur.com/gallery/wy4WDEH

It did not come in good shape, the tumbler was ground off axis and digging into the plate and the hammer was skewed.  My biggest issue was the flint had to be offset in the jaws in order to hit the frizzen. After several days of stoning and filing internal parts I had something that worked well. 

Are all L&R like this, I don't know.  I do know that as sold it was a more reliable sparker than the original T/C lock, but the flint would frequently be knocked loose.


 The end result is a big improvement and fires reliably. As big an improvement as it is, a new untouched Chambers is still significantly better with stronger springs that sparks even better, but maybe harder on flints.   If I had to do it again, I would get a Chambers makers lock and do my best to fit the plate so the bolster and sear lever are positioned correctly as I think it would be less work.

I think if you can hold it in your hands and put a new flint in and fire it 10x with good sparks and without any issues like the flint shattering you're good.

Edit: I did not alter the springs other than removing a bit of the width to allow for the slightly narrowed linkage because of the slightly narrowed tumbler.  The frizzen came in great shape and sparks well.  The only thing I did to the frizzen (and the other externals) was polish and hit it with a torch to give it a bit of color after polishing, but not enough heat to soften the face.