Kibler carving

[Glenn Dellaway]

I am not a fan of the new c and c machine made robotic carving on the Woodsrunner rifle

Rather over the top and to me it just seems kind of ugly and messy.

I saw a film on you tube about this last night and what do you all,think?

Glenn Korea veteran 1952

[Stoner creek]

 That’s why some folks like Cadillacs and some like Toyotas. I never saw any good come from negativity.

[bob in the woods]

I am not a fan of the new c and c machine made robotic carving on the Woodsrunner rifle

Very overdone and ugly

I saw a film on you tube about this last night and what do you all,think?

Glenn Korea veteran 1952

Lots of folks are purchasing them, so must not share your opinion. 

[Mike Brooks]

I am not a fan of the new c and c machine made robotic carving on the Woodsrunner rifle

Very overdone and ugly

I saw a film on you tube about this last night and what do you all,think?

Glenn Korea veteran 1952

I think it's great, well designed and executed. You can also turn it into raised relief carving, another bonus. I have 44 years in the business and never felt threatened by Kibler, but many are for some reason. I give him credit for the renewed interest in muzzle loading especially in the younger crowd.
You should probably never ask me what I think....

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yeah, Mike the fence sitter...

[JH Ehlers]

I once commented on a guns decoration and I was told to keep my comments to myself. 

[Daryl]

Yeah, Mike the fence sitter...

My thoughts exactly, Taylor.
As to the negativity, everyone should be entitled to an opinion.

[Glenn Dellaway]

I should mention I have one of his southern mountain guns my grandson put together for me and it is very nice. No tacky carving.

Glenn

[bluenoser]

It seems unfortunate that negative comments are so poorly received.  Criticism of negative comments encourages others to keep their opinion to themselves when they feel less than positive about something.  Discouraging honest comments when they are negative also denies the the subject of the comment the benefit of honest feedback.  I expect better of our members.  How can we have a free and honest discussion when only positive comments are tolerated?
I have to more or less agree with Glenn.  I was asked to assemble a carved Woods Runner but declined for unrelated reasons.  I did get to handle and study it.  In my opinion, the carving is over done and very mechanical in appearance.  Although I give Jim much credit for his technical accomplishments, I would not have one.

In contrast, a friend delivered a fowler for assembly earlier today and I can only say WOW.  The amount of carving is modest and perfectly suited to the gun.  Kudos to Jim and company for a job very well done.  I want one.

[Glenn Dellaway]

It seems unfortunate that negative comments are so poorly received.  Criticism of negative comments encourages others to keep their opinion to themselves when they feel less than positive about something.  Discouraging honest comments when they are negative also denies the the subject of the comment the benefit of honest feedback.  I expect better of our members.  How can we have a free and honest discussion when only positive comments are tolerated?
I have to more or less agree with Glenn.  I was asked to assemble a carved Woods Runner but declined for unrelated reasons.  I did get to handle and study it.  In my opinion, the carving is over done and very mechanical in appearance.  Although I give Jim much credit for his technical accomplishments, I would not have one.

In contrast, a friend delivered a fowler for assembly earlier today and I can only say WOW.  The amount of carving is modest and perfectly suited to the gun.  Kudos to Jim and company for a job very well done.  I want one.

It sure seems the moderators here are quite over zealous. Free speech doesn’t seem encouraged much here. Dare not go against the grain even slightly. I’ll get back in line now Mr. Crosby.

Glenn

[axelp]

I really like the woodsrunner ...without the cnc carving.

But when the cnc carving is used as an outline/template and relief carved? It looks much better. But I still like it better without.

But I also don't like fried okra or boiled spinach, but I do like steamed artichokes and lightly sautéed asparagus.

K

[rich pierce]

It seems unfortunate that negative comments are so poorly received.  Criticism of negative comments encourages others to keep their opinion to themselves when they feel less than positive about something.  Discouraging honest comments when they are negative also denies the the subject of the comment the benefit of honest feedback.  I expect better of our members.  How can we have a free and honest discussion when only positive comments are tolerated?
I have to more or less agree with Glenn.  I was asked to assemble a carved Woods Runner but declined for unrelated reasons.  I did get to handle and study it.  In my opinion, the carving is over done and very mechanical in appearance.  Although I give Jim much credit for his technical accomplishments, I would not have one.

In contrast, a friend delivered a fowler for assembly earlier today and I can only say WOW.  The amount of carving is modest and perfectly suited to the gun.  Kudos to Jim and company for a job very well done.  I want one.

It sure seems the moderators here are quite over zealous. Free speech doesn’t seem encouraged much here. Dare not go against the grain even slightly. I’ll get back in line now Mr. Crosby.

Glenn

Don’t be confused, Glenn. There’s world of difference between personal attacks and “piling on” product bashing (neither allowed) and stating what one likes and dislikes, and why (not restricted). This forum is free. It’s maintained, membership taken care of, and kept on track free of charge. I don’t go to a party with free food (or a hosted potluck) and complain to, and about, those putting it on, and the no smoking or whatever other rules they have. Just my style. 

[EC121]

While assembling one I thought the carving was a bit busy.  Sanding and staining muted it enough that it was not so bad.  Parts I liked and parts looked like overkill.  HOWEVER, it was carved better than I could have done it.. So, no complaints.  Just comments! 😃

[JasonR]

Glenn... I'd say for beginners its a great start. Most beginners don't know or care much about carving design, tendrils, scrolls, volutes, or relief carving.

Rich and Mods...maybe his feedback was a little abrasive but not a "pile-on". In fairness, past posts, even by respected well-known builders, have been overlooked for really blunt remarks of L&R's chronic lock quality issues or ToW for problems with their Tulle lock mainspring design. Even a recent knock in poor taste on the late Mr. Dangler by one well-known builder was overlooked.

[rich pierce]

Jason, we’re starting a new discussion it seems, and I contributed to that. I was trying to broadly outline rules.  To me, starting a topic with “I don’t like the looks of this product” was out of place here.  I’d not seen that before. “I didn’t buy it and have a problem with it. I’m not going to buy it. I just don’t like it.” Any of us could start a topic like that about a thousand things, and what does it add?

I’ll try to get back on topic. Jim Kibler started a new thread showing us a Woodsrunner he finished up. It’s a really fine looking rifle in my view and illustrates for me, perhaps, what he had in mind for the look his CNC carving on a finished product. Anyhow, the reason there are so many styles of Longrifle kits offered is that we all have different tastes or “wants” at a given moment.

[PAhunter]

 Please keep the neg. comments to yourself. JK is putting out fantastic kits and a lot of people are buying them. just my 2 cents.

[bluenoser]

I agree with Rich's comment regarding the wording of the subject line, but little else in the post.  In my opinion, the OP's post could have been more softly worded and more diplomatic, but it did convey his opinion - even if a tad harshly.  Yes, anyone could make a similar post regarding any number of products, but the objective should be to do it diplomatically and such a post should be accepted as honest and legitimate comment by all members of this forum.
As to "and what does it add":  It provides honest and well rounded feedback to the provider.  Were I still in the business of providing a product to the public, I would welcome all feedback - both positive and negative.  Both are valuable for future product development.

[Mike Brooks]

I should mention I have one of his southern mountain guns my grandson put together for me and it is very nice. No tacky carving.

Glenn

Tacky?  Really?    I think we should see some of the carving you designed and executed so we can all say whether or not we like it. You do know the woodsrunner is available without carving right?

[Mike Brooks]

Glenn... I'd say for beginners its a great start. Most beginners don't know or care much about carving design, tendrils, scrolls, volutes, or relief carving.

Rich and Mods...maybe his feedback was a little abrasive but not a "pile-on". In fairness, past posts, even by respected well-known builders, have been overlooked for really blunt remarks of L&R's chronic lock quality issues or ToW for problems with their Tulle lock mainspring design. Even a recent knock in poor taste on the late Mr. Dangler by one well-known builder was overlooked.

That would be referring to what I said. It's no secret I state what I think although I don't do it much anymore. I could have went in depth about Dangler's work but I just don't care enough to go into it.  Stating the truth is rarely "poor taste".

[Pro Libertate]

I think it’s a matter of “different strokes for different folks”. While the CNC carving certainly doesn’t have the appeal or character of that which has been done by hand (strictly my opinion), I’d take it any day of the week over poorly executed carving. It also makes that sort of thing affordable to the average working man.

One of the things I’ve always appreciated about this group is the ability to speak one’s mind without fear of being bullied and tormented for offering up your opinion. Let’s leave that sort of thing to the folks over on the Muzzleloading Forum, okay? We ought to be able to make assertions and engage in debate without being downright nasty and mean.

[Bill Raby]

Why do people always think of the average working man as some loser that can't rub two nickels together? A lot of working men are making pretty good money.

[Pro Libertate]

You know… with all due respect, we don’t always have to make contrarian statements in an attempt to stir up controversy.

I can’t help but feel as though I’ve had words put in my mouth here. I am the average working guy, and I’ve got a lot of places for my money to go. As a husband and father of four, I don’t exactly have $6,000 to commission a custom rifle with an elegantly carved stock. I can, however, afford a Kibler kit with CNC carving (after a period of diligent saving). I never so much as even implied the working man was “a loser who can’t rub two nickels together.”

If everyone had money to burn on custom flintlocks, Kibler’s kits would be quite unnecessary, wouldn’t they? It’s because of their price (and their incredible value for the money) which I think has made them so popular with a wide range of shooters. Or are they only for the poor amongst us?

[axelp]

Being able to invoke a CNC machine to create such precise work that is indicative of original handmade pieces, ranks as almost "miracle status"  in my book.

I am just barely aware enough to know it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Jim and everyone on his team are indeed breaking new ground, and if I did not already have a full quiver of flintlocks?...

My hope is that the Kiblers will continue to refine their work and keep it moving forward.

I also hope that ALL of the historical artists represented on this forum will continue to refine their own work in their own way, and keep it moving forward. All have a special place in the choir.

KenP

[Stoner creek]

Being able to invoke a CNC machine to create such precise work that is indicative of original handmade pieces, ranks as almost "miracle status"  in my book.

I am just barely aware enough to know it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Jim and everyone on his team are indeed breaking new ground, and if I did not already have a full quiver of flintlocks?...

My hope is that the Kiblers will continue to refine their work and keep it moving forward.

I also hope that ALL of the historical artists represented on this forum will continue to refine their own work in their own way, and keep it moving forward. All have a special place in the choir.

KenP

 Hey Ken,
 When your quiver is full do like me and buy another quiver!!!!
W

[axelp]

Hey now... I like that idea a lot.  K