200 yd round ball load

[Daryl]

Sorry for the outburst. I deleted that last post.

[45-110]

There does seem to be a trend to view low post counts as a neophyte shooter. In my case its 55yrs of dedicated pursuit, so I don't qualify. I inquired about a felt wad and if anyone had success using that combo, instead got info that was generally true but not relevant to the particular query.
kw

[Daryl]

Some people have noted improved accuracy when using a barrier between the pached ball and powder.
Sam Fadala noted this when he insisted on using weak, non-sealing ball and patch combinations.
This, the use of some sort of barrier will likely help but adds another step and added material in loading.
Its time to test it in your rifle. Not all rifles react the same to added materials. A proper test needs to be done whenever changing and component.
Your rifle will tell you if it works in your gun or not.
Years ago I tested barriers of different materials from cards then and patch poked down, to a felt wad.
My .69 didn't care.
The .40 and .45 both lost accuracy.
Your .60 may or may not shoot better.
My .40 and. 45 both did better with a lot of lead and patch compression in the bottom of the grooves, ie: snug loads.

[45-110]

Thanks Daryl, another range session coming up. I have the tight load, and don't mind hard starting as it is not for hunting. 2 more trial runs, the lube felt wad and maybe 125 gr. of 1 1/2F. I have noticed very increased hard fouling when getting down to the ball seat with these increased loads. May shoot 2 and swab, and continue 2 more etc. Been 90f here and no humidity, using soaking wet patches now with a wipe of mink oil on back side. There really is no reason to pursue this other than a personal achievement of a respectable "group"
I routinely shoot 800- 1200yd in bpcr competition and fair quite well with iron sights on distance gongs. So a 200yd shot seems like point blank.
kw

[Dphariss]

I have been trying to develop a reasonable 200 yd. load in my .54 cal. Dimick plains rifle with a 1-60" twist. A 24" group is where I am currently at. Even though for the last 2 yrs I have won our gong match, its nothing to brag about. Shooting 90 gr. OE 1 1/2 powder, have tried .530, .535 balls and various duck patching. Fired patches look good.  So I am wiling to try a felt wad under ball next. If you have had some success with this combo, what thickness of felt, and is it lubed? Sure would like to get at least a 12" group. I have a globe front and adjustable plains style rear sight and have no problem seeing the target while on the bench.
thanks
KW

For that distance. FFF. 90-100. 535  with a ticking patch. My 1970s Doulas barreled Flint Hawken would do 6” or less for 5 shots. I would use Swiss for this if the stuff you are using continues to fail. This about 15 years ago shot at dawn before the breeze came up. If I could feel it the ball would go out downwind.
I had made a tang sight for the rear tang screw silver blade front.  HOWEVER. With the RB any breeze would blow the group out downwind. This off my pickup tailgate sitting on a lawn chair.

Most rifles don’t like wimpy loads much.

[Daryl]

45-110, the trouble with wiping now and then, is the changing barrel condition which will screw up groups.
If a load combo is used that does not change  but maintains the se bore condition, accuracy will be consistent. If there is fouling building  then the load is not tight enough.
In that case  your accuracy will be better if you wipe between shots - or use some sort of barrier between powder and payched ball.
A .60 will easily shoot paper ctgs. due to the wadded up paper between the ball and powder. For this to happen(accurate shooting with ctg) the paper needs to be somewhat engraved upon searing the ball into the bore. With this method  I and others here have achieved identical accuracy using paper ctgs. Thus the barrier "system" is proven to work.

[Dphariss]

If patches are blowing you need more powder or better patch material. A lot of the cotton you might buy today simply is too weak and will fail. I bought some denim I was sure was good bought 2 yards. But it threw shots all over the place with two different rifles. Dunno why.  I shoot mostly linen now.  More powder acts as a wad during initial acceleration. Finer powder, while faster, can slow initial flame propagation. Caps. The hotter caps have caused problems with some shooters. These came along to better light off the higher ignition temp fake powders. 

Just more thinking.

BTW and you likely know this, 1 1/2 is really cartridge powder as is the OE. My 45-2.6 loves the 1 1/2 swiss with 500-540 pp. But would not occur tome to put in a ml.
Wiping. Damp patch both sides, dry patch both sides. Wet patches will put too much water in the breech.

[smylee grouch]

As noted in another reply, you might want to give Swiss a try OR  some different patch lube. Food for thought.

[45-110]

Ok Dan 3f will be in the test, I by passed it for use with the initial heavy load trials. Good Irish linen was my go to patch mat'l, but now nearly out of it and not something to be found In Powell WY.  The current .020" cotton duck I have is some stout stuff, last patches looked good. Yes I don't even bother trying for groups if the Wy. "breeze" is up......just like in Livingston!
Kim

[Magnum]

Lewis made some great vids. He really thought things through for long distance. Great guy.

[MJBush]

50-110, are you using Duck canvas, 10oz? If so, I have found hot and dry conditions it blows apart if not real wet. When temp is below 75 degrees or below it shoots great, any hotter either can’t find the patches or they are badly torn.
I have done some 200 yard shooting, even won a couple of medals at the NMLRA Western Nationals some lessons I learned.  140 grains of Goex 2F, shoot as early as possible less wind and clean between shots.
BTW, the gun weighs 35 lbs and has Redfield Olympic sights, 530 ball and Teflon .015 and it is a 53 cal.
The difference between 100 and 200 yard sight settings is 62 clicks up. Then fine tune.
Michael

[Hawg]

We positioned a marker over the target and my best shots happened when I was actually not able to see the target but rather with a point of aim about 18 inches OVER the center of the target.  BTW, there were no adjustments to the sights.

A trick I learned when long range revolver shooting was to use the barrel itself as part of the front sight. That way you never lose sight of the front sight and it's always on target.

[Daryl]

We positioned a marker over the target and my best shots happened when I was actually not able to see the target but rather with a point of aim about 18 inches OVER the center of the target.  BTW, there were no adjustments to the sights.

A trick I learned when long range revolver shooting was to use the barrel itself as part of the front sight. That way you never lose sight of the front sight and it's always on target.

That sighting system is normal for modern handguns shot at long range. We also use it for long range rifle shooting with fixed sights on our muzzleloaders.
At the Squamish range we shot at a quartz rock about 16" in diameter. It was positioned up on the rock face of the Big Chief mountain, 300yards from the firing line.(mid 1970's)
My 2-lens range finder of the day made the rock out at 325yards.
Taylor's .62 Hawken had a bright line on the browning of the barrel 1/2 way to the muzzle, caused by the loading bench edge. That line was the perfect elevation, held at the top of the rear sight
and placing the blade under the rock. More, many more hits on that rock, then misses. I made a similar mark on my .45 Bauska barrel. I even hit the darn thing with my wife's .36 Seneca shooting 128gr. Maxiballs with 60gr. 3F GO powder.
Man, that was a long time ago, when we could see.

[45-110]

When I get into a fabric store for patch material, I always look to see it is 100% cotton or linen. I never pay attention to the "ounce" designation, the fabric is most foreign made and I don't trust that or the sales person. I bring my micrometer and go to work measuring the different choices.
kw

[hudson]

45 – 110 this patching has always work when nothing else does. Army Duct Canvas, I picked it up here some time ago. Previous to using it I was using .020 Teflon the only thing that held up to my heavy loads with accuracy it held a slight edge. After seeing a post here I decided to give it a try, with my previous load 110 gr. 2F Goex .020 Teflon. .535 ball 20/80 Balistol/water. With switching to the Army Duct Canvas also .020 it has such a tight weave I had to drop down to .530 ball size. I couldn’t begin to get that .535 ball started. Note here I can shoot all day without cleaning with Teflon or Army Duct Canvas. Sorry to say I see it is presently out of stock but appears only a temporary thing.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-60-inches-wide/

[45-110]

Well todays test was only slightly better using 3f and .020 duck. Anything over 100 gr 3f is blowing the patches. Tried a few felt wads under ball and it did show some group size improvement but could no locate the patches at range. Ran bore camera down for a look after cleaning, its not the smoothest rifling job I have seen and it did get a lapping a couple yrs ago. Linen will be the next try.
kw

[Daryl]

A rough bore ("not the smoothest rifling job") will always be hard on patches.  But again, if they are blowing ie: cannot be found, they lack the thickness and/or strength to be trusted.
If it was lapped a couple years ago, why isn't it smooth now? Not adding up, it seems. Just trying to help.

[45-110]

Daryl I am very picky about barrels I buy. What always looks good to the eye by looking down the bore can be a shock by having a look with a bore camera. Most builders do not have one. Some covid Grn. Mtn. barrels where a joke for roughness. I have lapped several brands over the years before I even bothered to shoot them.  Lapping can provide a bit of bore taper when done properly from the breech. This barrels current bore condition is burr free and shows light tooling marks in the grooves, the lands are smooth. Maybe this winter I will give it another lead lap. Muzzle is coned, radiused and polished. A tight weave linen might get me there yet. Or just park it and return to my .58 Hawken or Creamer rifle.
Had no patch issues in the 80 gr range, but again it was a 200 yd failure even though I have won 2 matches with it.
kw

[Daryl]

Interesting. Tool marks in the grooves, ie: longitudinal marks running up the grooves mean nothing imho.
My .69 had a lot of reamer marks on the tops of the lands. Even after over 5,000 shots, they (memories) are still visible,
yet I had zero patch problems at the start as i found a normal .021" patch would not "take" over a 90gr. 2F charge. I simply
used a 12 ounce denim patch I was measuring at .030" with compressed calipers and .025" on my mic. These with .682" ball.
.012" deep rifling., GRRW barrel.
I even used the same patch in 1986 or 87 for each shot in a 5-shot group at 50 yards, that ran just under 2" offhand. About as
good as I could do back then.
Here's the barrel today. You can still see the cross reamer marks, yet it will take even 165gr. 2F with the current .021" denim 10 ounce patches.
No cone, just a smoothly radiused crown. I can easily load a 10 ounce denim patch with a .690" ball of pure lead - but - you have to want to put it in.
It takes a good smack with the palm.
After into the bore and down 6" with the starter, it goes down easily with the rifle's rod.
At 11 o'clock, I see some rod wear in one groove.

[Hungry Horse]

 I’ve seen a lot of shooters, and hunters, try to get their muzzleloading rifle the shoot a tight yard maxi group at two hundred yards, and nobodies has consistently done that at our range since I started shooting black powder in the early ‘70’s. Oh, I’ve seen some tight groups over the years, on a given day, but nobody has been able to make it happen all the time.

 My standard line for new shooter, or hunter, that wants consistent tight groups, and killing velocity at two hundred yards is to tell him, or her, to go out and get a target that if it is hit at all, it would be a hit in the vitals. Then back it up with something to demonstrate penetration, and then come back and tell me what you think the possibilities are of making a clean kill. They all came back with a 125 maximum, or less. Now I know long shots can be made with the right gun, sights, load, and shooter, its just that magical combination only happens once in a blue moon.

Hungry Horse

[45-110]

Hungry Horse
As I indicated earlier, my quest for the 200 yd improved group is for one of our local matches not hunting. I had some better success today with a different duck and ball size, and dropped the charge back to 90gr. But its a load better suited for bench work not from the bag as its hard to load. Ran to town later and found some .022 denim. So when the wind complies I will give that a go.
kw

[Jim Kinderman]

A lot of good suggestions already. Since the .535 ball you’re using is only .003 smaller than the .538 bore, have you considered going to a smaller ball such as a .530 which would allow the use of a thicker patch. That thicker patch should hold up better to the higher velocity charges. Just a thought.

[Kurt]

If you want to load a tighter patch try using a loading block and a ball starter for a 50 or 45 caliber. I beat my hand up trying to load a tighter patch in my 40 caliber and thought of this. Using a starter for a 32 caliber worked for me.

[smylee grouch]

Kurt makes a good point. If the short starter shaft is close to bore size it will wedge the patch between bore and shaft and sometimes damage the patch as you load the gun.

[Daryl]

My .40 through .58 starters are 3/8" in diameter.
I use 1/2" for .62 through .69.