200 yd round ball load

[bigsmoke]

I am not much of a fan of lubed felt wads for anything but revolver use.
In my big bore shooting days, I found that lubed cushion wads from Ox Yoke worked great for me with what most people think are ridiculous loads, 200 grains up to 400 gains.  And the patches never burned out, either.
Not sure if the new Ox Yoke is still putting them out or not.
The Gun Works does offer Circle Fly cushion wad in 28 ga.

https://thegunworks.com/shop/shotgun-accessories/shotgun-wads/circle-fly-wads/shotgun-wad-28-ga-cushion/

They do not appear to be lubed, but that is easily done yourself.

Just a thought, but the previous post about load development for 50 and 100 yards is absolutely right on.  Until those are zeroed in, the rest is just fun and making smoke, and maybe even frustration.

John (Bigsmoke)

[Bob Roller]

In the early 1960's I built a 58 caliber rifle based on a gun in our museum here.It was made by someone with the last name of Henry and used a drum and nipple ignition.I got a 1 and 1/8x34 barrel from Bill Large and made a fairly good copy half stock in walnut with silver butt plate and trigger guard and single set trigger.I mounted a Malcolm telescope sight that was nearly full length and shot it at Bill Larges range from a rest at 399 MEASURED yards.The was a big tree at that end and I guessed 400 yards and careful measuring said 399. I used a 575 ball and 120 grains of Curtis&Harvey 3fg and it would stay on a NMLRA 100 yard target.I think the rifling was 1 turn in 57" with 8 grooves and concaved lands.Bill was as surprised as I was at the distance and accuracy.Looking back I think this was in 1960 because I went to Dodge City Kansas to a gun show with Forest Burdette,a local antique dealer and Colt SA collector and bought the scope for $25 and the gun was finished before that,maybe in late 1959.I think I still have part of that can of C&H powder.
Bob Roller

[Justin Urbantas]

That's pretty wild, Bob. I wonder how much the ball drops over that distance. 50-75 feet?

[Daryl]

Interesting thought, Justin, but if the gun is sighted for that range, there is no drop below the line of sight, other than those balls striking low, in the group.
Perhaps a better question, "what would the midrange trajectory be, above the line of sight".

[HSmithTX]

According to the ballistic calculator I play with from time to time, assuming a 293 grain ball and a muzzle velocity of 1700 on a standard day it is roughly 415 inches, or about 34 and a half feet below line of sight with a 100 yard zero distance.  440 inches or 36.7 feet with a 50 yard zero.  Line of sight in both instances is sighted to the zero distance. Max ordinate is not available on this calculator, but it is safe to assume it's pretty similar to the drop numbers. 

[45-110]

Just back from another range session today. Had a big jump in success after finding blown patches again. So I started swabbing between every shot and all recovered patches are perfect. Blustery Wyoming tail wind here today so only shot at 120 yds. but got 2 nice 5" groups using OE 2f.  Have noted a heavy crust ring ahead of the patent breech using 90 gr. OE which I now assume is tearing the patch on firmly the ball, since it sure feels that way. Hence the PIA swabbing. Next try will be Swiss and see how much crust builds up. Been using Napa oil and water, could try Ballistol also next. My patches are soaking wet so its load and shoot. Also I did solder a small aperture disc on the buck horn sight and that was a plus.
The 2 patch method or a lubed felt, helped but not a much as swabbing.
kw

[MJBush]

5 inch group at 200 yard with open sights is outstanding. I can after each and every shot. Found the bore that is the same every time is more consistent.
Michael

[Bob Roller]

That's pretty wild, Bob. I wonder how much the ball drops over that distance. 50-75 feet?

Wild or not that was the range and 399 yards is not that far.That old Malcolm scope had good lenses and I had and still do have the prewar binoculars that were made in Japan and that black circle was not hard to see and it was on a 4'x6'piece of clean card board.I think the slow twist and a good load of high quality powder worked well in that test.The 75 foot drop was impossible and the travel time of that ball was short. This was done over 60 years ago and none of the witness's are now alive. lot of people have no idea about shooting at longer than normal distances with unlikely guns.Two old friends,Forest Mitchell and Bernard Enix using 44 caliber revolvers could make anyone look for cover if they shot at them from 300 yards and Mitchell said there were 300 yard turkey shoots in Kentucky and he won it more than once.
With my 44 I guarantee nobody wants to get within 300 yards of me and it isn't a modern gun either.
Bob Roller

[Dan O]

A round ball program I found has the following results for a 58 cal ball with a muzzle velocity of 1700 fps with a 10 mph wind from 90 degree's. The zero is 200 yards. The numbers are pretty amazing.


Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)

0      1700   1878    -0.5    0.0     0.000
2      1685   1844    0.1     0.0     0.003
4      1665   1801    0.7     0.0     0.007
6      1650   1769    1.2     0.0     0.010
8      1631   1728    1.8     0.1     0.014
10     1612   1688    2.3     0.1     0.018
15     1571   1603    3.7     0.2     0.027
20     1527   1516    5.0     0.4     0.037
25     1486   1435    6.3     0.6     0.047
30     1446   1360    7.6     0.8     0.057
35     1410   1292    8.8     1.1     0.067
40     1373   1224    9.9     1.4     0.078
45     1338   1164    11.0    1.8     0.089
50     1303   1104    12.0    2.3     0.101
75     1162   877     16.2    5.3     0.162
100    1069   743     18.4    9.4     0.229
125    1004   655     18.2    14.5    0.302
150    948    585     15.5    20.2    0.378
175    898    524     9.4     26.9    0.460
200    852    472     0.0     34.3    0.546
225    811    427     -13.3   42.4    0.636
250    771    386     -31.1   51.4    0.731
275    732    348     -53.7   61.2    0.830
300    694    313     -82.6   72.1    0.936
325    657    281     -117.8  84.0    1.047
350    622    251     -160.5  96.9    1.164
375    588    225     -211.9  111.0   1.288
400    555    200     -273.1  126.4   1.419

[Dphariss]

Ok Dan 3f will be in the test, I by passed it for use with the initial heavy load trials. Good Irish linen was my go to patch mat'l, but now nearly out of it and not something to be found In Powell WY.  The current .020" cotton duck I have is some stout stuff, last patches looked good. Yes I don't even bother trying for groups if the Wy. "breeze" is up......just like in Livingston!
Kim

OK try fabric-store <dot>com for linen, has to be 8oz or better. Their linen “canvas” is pretty good (but its not there now). But wash and tumble dry to shrink and tighten it up then iron flat.
If you search for IL090 you should find the 8 oz. They had some heavier stuff that was IL091 but is does not come up now. But I bought enough to run for a time. It shoots good even with .526s out of my Kibler 54s.
They will sell small swatches so you can look before buying.
Dan

[Habu]

I've sent a fair amount of this downrange over the years: https://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-unprimed-belgian-linen-canvas/?srsltid=AfmBOooXSIAYzn7rHK2OtTNlEUO9dJCTXzg1i7mSGZmFiM9uvPLtS-jn 

If you try other art supply stores, you'll want to search for UNPRIMED linen canvas. 

[45-110]

If I read their pricing correctly its painfully expensive!

[Taylorz1]

Hello Kenny,

Im late to the dance here but I have had good luck with heavy tent canvas .025” and heavy charges of black with a PRB. Ive got a couple guns that are real patch eaters and this combo fixed that. Ive never been able to get ticking or linen to work well for me with heavy charges. I also shoot a number of original guns with iffy bores and a smaller ball with a heavy patch and lots of a courser grade of black is usually the ticket. That said I cant beat 5” at 200 for sure but pretty consistently can shoot around 8”. Hope you are doing well. Best,

Zack T

[45-110]

Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw

[smylee grouch]

Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw

.    Have you tried a grease type lube? Thinking out loud that it might leave more lube in the weave!   

[Taylorz1]

I had my fill of super tight patch/ball combos and trying to load in a hurry when hunting. I use a .526 ball and .025 patch in my primary .54 and a .562 ball with .025 patch in my primary .58. That combo is easy enough to load  with a simple rod and the accuracy for me was better than the bigger ball and  tighter/thinner patch combos. It does go against the dogma I guess but works consistently for me. I have a thing for rusty old antique Lemans. They tend to have very narrow/deep lands and the only combo I can get to work in those guns is a super heavy patch, skinny ball and big loads of black.

[45-110]

Yes one of the previous sessions I used Mink oil/grease soaked patches, that test was with the tight combination and still had the fouled crust ring.
Got out early this morning before the wind came up to re verify yesterdays succes, the problem with that is the range faces east and sun glare is bad. Thinking the last 2 trips have proved out the .023 denim and the .526 ball over 90 gr. of 2f at 120 yds. Now its back too the 200yd trials. Funny all the tight loads with the .530 and .535 ball are less accurate and seem to foul worse. Maybe the overly tight ball/patch squeezes out all the lube (moose milk) by the time it gets seated all the way down to the crust ring and hence the needed swabbing.
kw

.    Have you tried a grease type lube? Thinking out loud that it might leave more lube in the weave!   

[smylee grouch]

I had blown patches when my patch material was too old and had deteriorated .  just curious also if using a hard card wad over powder would help.

[Sandro_ventania]

Try 50 grains of cornmeal over the powder. It seals the gases better, protects the patch, improves accuracy. It works much better than a wad.

[Daryl]

this is how he keeps from blowing patches

I have not had a "blown" patch since about 1973 or 1974 at the latest.
I do not use anything but one patch, the one that goes around the ball. I use no other wads, either.
If you want to, go for it if it helps.
I've not seen anyone who uses such "assisted"  loadings in the winners circles at rendezvous I've been to..
Everyone we shoot with  use loads and we do including
our wives. THESE people are the competition we must beat, not those who use weird additions to their loads.

[Daryl]

Not only.must your ball and patch combo "make it" with a squib close range target load  but if interested in longer range shooting, it must hold up with the even heavier charges needed for shooting long range.

[Daryl]

Even good groups at 50 yards is required before going to 100. Then jumping to 200 is do-able, but it must shoot well at closer ranges first - without burning or tearing.patches in any way.
A good patch, should be reusable, without.loss of accuracy for at least 2 if not 5 shots, especially in larger calibers. This is because of the much lower breech and muzzle pressures generated in large bore rifles.

[alacran]

Daryl is correct!