Becks finishing oil use

[rich pierce]

I’m going to try Beck’s finishing oil on a walnut stock and want to seal the stock before using the thick stuff. Should I thin with 1/4th turpentine by volume or use a different sealer?

[AZshot]

I'm doing a walnut stock next, and several people say you don't need to seal walnut, the finish will do it.  Others say you do.  Pros on both sides.  Since I'm not going to stain, I think I'll just dewisker and jump right into the oils.

[Daryl]

I've never sealed a walnut stock before finishing with either tung or true oil. Both have given me great finishes, the way I do it, with finger dabs rubbed in before moving to another area.

[rich pierce]

From JD Beck

For best results, I recommend the following 10 simple steps for finishing your stock with Beck Flintlocks Finishing Oil and Wax:

1. Sand the stock progressively up to 400 grit and wipe it down with a tack cloth.

2. Whisker the stock 3-5 times to find any missed spots.

3. Apply a grain/stock enhancing agent like iron nitrate

4. Apply a stain or finish the stock naturally.

5. Apply a generous coat of Beck Flintlock Finishing Oil, rubbing it in deeply.

6. After drying, lightly scuff the stock with Scotch-Brite, tack cloth, and apply 2-3 more coats of oil, rubbing it in. You can also burnish between coats.

7. Massage the oiled stock by hand to ensure a uniform appearance, then wipe it down. 

8. Warm the item to be waxed by letting it sit in the sun. Then apply the Beck Flintlock Finishing Wax .  The first coat of wax can be burnished with 4000 grit sandpaper. 

9. Allow the wax to fully cure. Then buff with a tack cloth. I recommend 3 coats of wax.

10. Maintain the finish with occasional wax coats.

[smart dog]

Hi Rich,
I think a lot will depend on what you want the finish to look like. It seems some modern builders like a very low sheen "oil in the wood" appearance, which is not very authentic for 18th century guns.  To get a decent sheen on walnut, you either need to apply a lot of coats of finish or first seal the grain.  I seal the grain on many walnut stocks by applying the first coat of finish with 220 grit sand paper and building up a slurry of sawdust and finish on the surface, which I let dry.  Then I sand it smooth with 220 or 320 grit paper and apply finish as usual. On utilitarian or military guns, I simply use multiple coats of unthinned finish that is either a polymerized oil or oil mixed with a varnish.  If you use any wax, be sure to have the sheen to where you want it before applying the wax because it is difficult to apply more finish on top of a wax layer.

dave

[rich pierce]

Thanks for the advice, Dave. It’s my first time using this oil. It looked very good on a test piece with un-stained and a couple stain options on it. The customer wants a dark reddish brown so I settled on thinned LMF Nut Brown as the stain. It’s giving the look he likes.  On the stock, the seal coat thinned with turpentine 1 part turp to 3 parts finish (Beck’s is a period recipe oil-based varnish) seemed to penetrate well and harden up overnight. American walnut I’ve used before varies a bit, so we will see how many coats are needed. I rubbed in a full strength coat today. I’ll likely apply another coat tomorrow and wet sand it in to start filling the pores. It’s looking good so far.

[P.W.Berkuta]

On a test piece try a thinned de-waxed shellac to seal then apply your Becks finish.

[Eric Kettenburg]

On a test piece try a thinned de-waxed shellac to seal then apply your Becks finish.

This is what I would do for sealing for pretty much any kind of oil finish.  Fast and easy, most likely historic given all of the seedlac and shellacs that were easily available here in PA, and the overlying oil-based finish coats will provide the weather protection.

FWIW shellac and seedlac themselves actually hold up much better against weather in practical use than many people think.  Not to the point that I would ever use them as a 'finish' on a rifle, but for sealing coats to build a 'base' so to speak, I can't imagine why anyone would mess around with oil-based sealers that will take 10X as long or more to dry.  Now or historically.

Anything linseed oil-based will adhere quite well to it also.  Bill Knight and I discussed this many times and he was definitely a proponent of it.

[Martin S.]

Hi Rich,
I think a lot will depend on what you want the finish to look like. It seems some modern builders like a very low sheen "oil in the wood" appearance, which is not very authentic for 18th century guns.  To get a decent sheen on walnut, you either need to apply a lot of coats of finish or first seal the grain.  I seal the grain on many walnut stocks by applying the first coat of finish with 220 grit sand paper and building up a slurry of sawdust and finish on the surface, which I let dry.  Then I sand it smooth with 220 or 320 grit paper and apply finish as usual. On utilitarian or military guns, I simply use multiple coats of unthinned finish that is either a polymerized oil or oil mixed with a varnish.  If you use any wax, be sure to have the sheen to where you want it before applying the wax because it is difficult to apply more finish on top of a wax layer.

dave

What style and type of finish is authentic for 18th century and early 19th century rifles?

I like the oil, "in the wood" finish, but I like to be authentic if I can.

What did they use?  Shellac?

[rich pierce]

Shellac may have been used for a sealing coat, and oil-based varnishes were commonly used. JD Beck is using a period recipe, as I understand it.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Almost all oil-based finishes of the era were based upon linseed oil, typically washed and boiled with a dryer such as lead.  Added to this, a few different tree turpentines can be used for thinning and also adding to polymerization, and finally, a huge variety of 'soft' tree resins can be utilized to add gloss or coloring characteristics.  'Hard' fossil resins can also be incorporated such as a true fossil copal (not the soft copals that are simply renamed tree resins) but this is much more involved and high-temp process, and how often gunmakers themselves were actually making such a hard varnish is (to my mind) a mystery, given that ALL of these types of finishes were advertised and available for sale out of population centers as finished ready-to-use products.

[JTR]

I wonder where samples of old finishes could be sent off to be analyzed for content. Or if the old finish is just too old to reveal much original content?

[smart dog]

Hi Rich,
I think a lot will depend on what you want the finish to look like. It seems some modern builders like a very low sheen "oil in the wood" appearance, which is not very authentic for 18th century guns.  To get a decent sheen on walnut, you either need to apply a lot of coats of finish or first seal the grain.  I seal the grain on many walnut stocks by applying the first coat of finish with 220 grit sand paper and building up a slurry of sawdust and finish on the surface, which I let dry.  Then I sand it smooth with 220 or 320 grit paper and apply finish as usual. On utilitarian or military guns, I simply use multiple coats of unthinned finish that is either a polymerized oil or oil mixed with a varnish.  If you use any wax, be sure to have the sheen to where you want it before applying the wax because it is difficult to apply more finish on top of a wax layer.

dave

What style and type of finish is authentic for 18th century and early 19th century rifles?

I like the oil, "in the wood" finish, but I like to be authentic if I can.

What did they use?  Shellac?

Hi,
They used an oil varnish that left a mildly glossy finish.  They would not use just oil that took months to dry if ever.  They were not interested is some 20th century Scandinavian fashion but a durable finish that dried fast and got them paid. 

dave

[Eric Kettenburg]

I wonder where samples of old finishes could be sent off to be analyzed for content. Or if the old finish is just too old to reveal much original content?

(1) The processes involved to actually determine the chemical composition of antique finishes are a science of themselves, and extremely expensive.  Just an example of what is necessary:  https://www.acs.org/pressroom/newsreleases/2022/october/chemical-clues-to-the-mystery-of-whats-coating-stradivaris-violins.html

(2) Most antique rifles no longer retain original finish or anything close to it.  Multiple finishes removed.

- Moe.

[Amateroy321]

I've never sealed a walnut stock before finishing with either tung or true oil. Both have given me great finishes, the way I do it, with finger dabs rubbed in before moving to another area.

a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V " no doubt about that"

[JTR]

Well Eric, we're not talking stradivaris violins here.
Seems to me it would be something simple like linseed oil with some dryers. And maybe a couple other special ingredients. 
As for original finishes, there's no doubt some around. The Dickert I had, until found in 2008, hadn't seen the light of day back to at least 1920.
No big deal, just curious. I wouldn't mind spending a bit, but don't know where I could get the job done.
John

[Martin S.]

Well Eric, we're not talking stradivaris violins here.
Seems to me it would be something simple like linseed oil with some dryers. And maybe a couple other special ingredients. 
As for original finishes, there's no doubt some around. The Dickert I had, until found in 2008, hadn't seen the light of day back to at least 1920.
No big deal, just curious. I wouldn't mind spending a bit, but don't know where I could get the job done.
John

Do you have pictures of the Dickert?  If so, I'd love to see them.  Perhaps in a new thread?  Sorry for the thread drift.

[Dphariss]

I’m going to try Beck’s finishing oil on a walnut stock and want to seal the stock before using the thick stuff. Should I thin with 1/4th turpentine by volume or use a different sealer?

I would not excessively thin it. Try about 10% Turpentine if this too thick try up to 20% max. It should penetrate better. Bill Knight wrote that to much turp can result in the turpentine penetrating and leaving the oil behind.
I don’t know how thick this is but an linseed oil varnish is not supposed to be as thin as the modern petroleum solvent laden “varnishes”. Thin it with about 10% turp and try it on a scrap of maple and see how it soaks in. If it penetrates fairly well it should be fine. End grain will usually suck it up like a sponge. Even a pretty heavy oil. And sanding according the “Staining and Finishing for Muzzleloading Gun Builders” inhibits penetration of the stain and the finish.
Remember it is impossible to make wood water proof. Unless put in a vacuum tank with epoxy and this makes a very heavy stock I am told. So we make it water resistant and give the end grain a good coat of heavy oil after the seal coat then wipe it off after 10-15 minutes. Any very hard water proof finish will invariably check and then “leak” like a sieve.

[Dphariss]

I'm doing a walnut stock next, and several people say you don't need to seal walnut, the finish will do it.  Others say you do.  Pros on both sides.  Since I'm not going to stain, I think I'll just dewisker and jump right into the oils.

I never stain good walnut. A properly made dark oil finish will give all the color needed and not obscure anything.

[Jdbeck]

No stain is needed.
The below Fowler was finished with my oil and wax.

[Dphariss]

This is American grown European Walnut. Just one of my shop cooked LS oil finishes.
It was pretty pale.
Stain imo would have just muddied it up.


The buttstock area had been oiled to check the grain before sawing it out.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Well Eric, we're not talking stradivaris violins here.
Seems to me it would be something simple like linseed oil with some dryers. And maybe a couple other special ingredients. 
As for original finishes, there's no doubt some around. The Dickert I had, until found in 2008, hadn't seen the light of day back to at least 1920.
No big deal, just curious. I wouldn't mind spending a bit, but don't know where I could get the job done.
John

If you want accurate results, the process is the same whether a violin, a harpsichord, a carved altarpiece or a rifle.  It's an expensive process as someone has to pay for the equipment utilized.  Wallace mentioned many years ago that Winterthur used to undertake work like this as well as metal alloy analysis, and it was not in any way cheap even in 1990s dollars.  I have no idea whether they were performing the work 'in house' or farming it out.

Some people use a cheap and simple dissolution process but this will only tell you the solvent base and whether oil or 'spirit' soluble.  This tells you nothing about the composition of various resins or driers, nor will it tell you the type of oil used if oil-soluble.

I did not say all antiques were refinished, only that most have been, and quite obviously at that.  In general, those who possess pieces retaining original finish are not inclined to permit removal of said original finish for analysis unless it can be harvested from an innocuous area.

- Shemp

[Dphariss]

 I think its in one of the two volumes of  “Firearms of The American West” where a clerk at a post up the Missouri was writing a friend concerning the forearm he should bring. IIRC it was a shotgun or Combination gun since they hunted birds around the post. But he told the recipient not to have a varnish finish but a “grease” finish since it would not reflect the sun.
This said the “Bridger Hawken” a late period Hawken Mountain Rifle. has what appears to be the original brown varnish but it is hardly shiny. But then high oil content finished usually are not. It has a LOT of unbroken finish behind the wrist but is well won in many places. And even a oil varnish with much age tends to dull unless its rubbed with the hand.
As has been pointed out many rifles have been refinished. Its possible that a long hunter of 1760 would no more want a shiny gun that the man on the Western prairie would. SO would they scrape it off? If so what would they replace it with?
I spent maybe 10-15 minutes looking for the “grease” quote but could not find it. Figures. Shoulda book marked it.
Just food for thought.

This rifle is in a glass case here with pretty good lighting. I don’t recall it being this “reflective” but cameras love to put hot spots on firearms they capture….

[Dphariss]

Well Eric, we're not talking stradivaris violins here.
Seems to me it would be something simple like linseed oil with some dryers. And maybe a couple other special ingredients. 
As for original finishes, there's no doubt some around. The Dickert I had, until found in 2008, hadn't seen the light of day back to at least 1920.
No big deal, just curious. I wouldn't mind spending a bit, but don't know where I could get the job done.
John

You need to carefully remember that the “Centennial Year” brought out fakes of various kinds. Like powder horns and I am sure some rifles got “fixed” at the time too. There was a wide spread celebration and great interest in the Revolution at least for a while and to some this means money. So finding one that had been stored since 1920 is great, just finding one is, but thats no proof it was not changed or “upgraded” 45-50 odd years before. BUT I have not see the rifle.
Beck had a “paint pot” in his estate. Its entirely likely he was making small batches of stock finish with it. He was not painter. But it would have allowed him to make stock finish in house.
Not only is there a lot we don’t know there is a lot we will never really know. No written record of what Dickert or Beck et al used for stock finish. Scientific analysis might help. As will old technical books. But thats about it.

This rifle would be one to look at if possible. Pg 97 of Kauffman.

[Eric Kettenburg]

There is much technical info to be found in period texts.  The hardest part is tracking them down!  Also, a number of period cabinetmaking and assorted woodworking trade-texts were written and published by wealthy dilettantes who were merely parroting things they were told or had read.  Some of the old formulae are completely unworkable.

Back when the 'two Bills' published their preliminary little booklet concerning finishes, Bill Knight gave me an accordion folder of all of the period documentation he had used, as well as a good deal of his correspondence with various 'experts' in the field including instrument makers, and keep in mind that there was definitely crossover material usage especially when it comes to resin varnishes and color vanishes. I still have it and have used it repeatedly over the years; it's probably a good 4-5 inches+ thick pile of papers!  Bill always intended that booklet to be an introduction, not an end-all.

If you really wanted to see Bill get worked up, all you had to do was mention using some form of polyurethane.