Patch reading

[flatsguide]

First shots out of my Rice barreled English sporting rifle kit by Jim Chambers flintlock. The patches are torn pretty bad. Here are the stats.
Barrel crown was polished and the barrel was lapped with tight patches and JB compound to remove any microscopic edge burrs.
Only fired two shots.
Charge: 90gns Swiss 3f.
Patch:  .018” pillow ticking (cotton)
Lube: patch wet with straight Ballistol.
Bore dia.   .580”
Bullet: pure lead ball. .570” dia.  272 gns
MV:  1740 fps.  (Garman chronograph)
First bullet load in clean barrel, bullet was tight but slid down smoothly to powder charge. Second loading with fouled bbl was difficult (second patch).
Any idea what’s occurring?
I stopped shooting as I found out I need to make a fly for the tumbler even though it’s a single trigger.
Thanks for the help.
Cheers Richard

[smylee grouch]

More crown work, thicker patch with tighter weave, more or different lube.

[recurve]

you have a cut rifle barrel  with micro burrs that are cutting the patches you can shoot it smooth or you can take steel wool w oil on a jag 50 stokes clean and test repeat as necessary  ( Mr Dixon advised me )
with patches looking like yours




after with a good patch

[smylee grouch]

I think the JB might slick up the surface somewhat but the steel wool will do a better job on any burrs. I will guess that the riffling is about 16/1000 deep and you have 10/1000 windage in the bore ( 580- 570 ball ) so you probably are getting blow by.

[smallpatch]

New patch material, more lube.?

[alacran]

Your pillow ticking is the problem. I would try 10 oz denim or tightly woven canvas. I have never used Ballistol for patch lube so I won't comment on that. I personally use Bear oil. If I don't have that I use mink oil. I have tried Mr Flintlocks patch lube and that works well.
The reason your second shot was hard to load was because of all the blow by from the torn patches.

[flatsguide]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions, please keep them coming.
I made a mistake, I thought that I had a patch thick enough to fill the rifling. With the rifling depth of .016” and the patch material being .018” I thought the patch had an extra .002 thou filing the rifling groove but I forgot to account for the .005 thou of windage between the ball and the bore per side, that’s .005” windage, .016” rifling depth for a total gap of .021” inches. Have I got that correct?  So, I guess I should try a patch thickness of at least .022”.  With a .022” patch and .005 windage per side of bullet to bore that amounts to a compression of the patch to .017” won’t that be very difficult to impossible to load? Seems like awfully deep rifling.
Smylee, Recurve, thanks! I have some 4 ought steel wool that I’ll try on the bore.

Smallpatch, alacran, thanks also! I try and hunt down some tighter woven material at the local Joann’s. So much of that cloth has synthetic materials that one really need to read the label.
At present I have the lock apart doing the final finishing on it and will make the fly today from tool steel.
Thanks again Richard

[smallpatch]

I’m confused. Not unusual.
Why do you need to make a fly? All Chambers locks have a fly?

Also, 90g of 3f? That’s a pretty stout load.

[Hawg]

Also, 90g of 3f? That’s a pretty stout load.

Why do you say it's a stout load? It's not like he's shooting minies out of it. I use 90 grains of 3F out of my .54. I would say 120 grains would be a stout load.

[smylee grouch]

I would think there is more to consider about what is " stout " than just bore size. Barrel contour, weight, rate of twist, stock profile and shooter comfort just to name a few.

[Daryl]

Well covered.
Ball dia. + 2 X patch thickness should equal .002" to .005" over groove to groove dia. Even more is better than less.
I would be using 2F personally. 2F is more forgiving of weaker combinations than is 3F. Yes, to get the same vel. will require more 2F than 3F, however in the larger bore sizes, 2F can give better accuracy. This was true in my .50 and .69.

[alacran]

Stout is a subjective term. That is unless you are talking about a beverage.

[flatsguide]

My target velocity I guess I should say desired velocity is 1800 fps. It really does not matter whether it’s from 2 or 3 F, what ever gives the best accuracy close to that velocity. From what I can figure from drop tables, that speed give good mid range trajectory. Plus I need to make a rear sight and need to know the fixed and leaf blade bights.

[Daryl]

2FG of any "given" make will deliver that target vel. at lower pressure than will 3FG of the same make. Thus the ball and patch combination will not be as critical as with 3FG. It still needs to seal, though.
Instead of having a "target" vel. I think you should target the best accuracy load instead.

[Jerry]

2FG of any "given" make will deliver that target vel. at lower pressure than will 3FG of the same make. Thus the ball and patch combination will not be as critical as with 3FG. It still needs to seal, though.
Instead of having a "target" vel. I think you should target the best accuracy load instead.

Daryl, I’ll drink to that! Jerry

[flatsguide]

“what ever gives the best accuracy close to that velocity” ! Daryl I think you missed this in my previous post. Of course one could claim the old saw of “the ball weight should match the the animal weight your after driven at the speed of light”

[Daryl]

Sorry - it happens sometimes to miss critical info while skimming posts.
With the rounded rifling of .016" depth, I would suggest a
.570" ball and thicker patch of 11 or 12 ounce denim, 100% cotton. Joanne's should have that. I have used a .022" canvas  but found that material to be slightly more difficult to load, perhaps due to it being stiffer.
I run a few meters of new material through a couple washing cycles,  1 with soap, one without then into the dryer.
After that, I cut patches for the .58 using a  1 1/8" arch punch. I use a 2" thick piece of UHMW (HDPE) under the material when cutting the patches.
This system works for me with all my ML's.
90gr. 3F will likely produce the same breech pressure as 125gr. 2F.

[Daryl]

Just remembering my .58 Hawken Taylor made with a 1 1/8" Bill Large barrel back in the late 1970's.  This rifle was never shot at 25yards as I could not see the point. I shot it mostly at 100yards. In order to group to my satisfaction at that ranges, 1 1/2" to 2", it required 140gr. 2F GOEX of the day.
I also experimented with various Minnie "balls" at that time  after modifying the moulds to cast MUCH thicker skirts. Lymans Black Powder Handbook was my guide back then.
I was able to shoot 2" groups at 100yards with all of the slugs except the longest one  the #57789? which in modified form, cast at 675gr. and produced 1,375fps with 165gr. 2F. It kick pretty hard and ran 2 to 2 1/2". 56" or 66" ROT , don't remember exactly. Good shooting rifle with 34" bl.

[flatsguide]

Daryl, that was interesting reading. At my age that load of 165 gns of 2f behind a 675 gn bullet would put me in the hospital. Tried my English .58 cal the other day and I’m getting 1730 fps with a cast pure lead RB and 100gns of Swiss 3f, recoil off the bench is not bad at all. I have a new Garmin Chronograph that works fine except when i tried to measure some loads using a 1/4” thick felt over powder wad. No matter where I placed the chronograph it would not display a reading when I used wads, guess I’m going to have to break out my old Ohler.
Cheers Richard

[Daryl]

Richard, that is interesting finding with the Garmin chronograph. I almost bought one, but do have 2 others, a Caldwell and a Chrony Beta that work just fine at this time.
A lubricated wad between powder and patched ball can help with weak & porous, but easily loaded combinations - Sam Fadala found that out many decades ago. I prefer
to use a sealing load, personally.  If the patches are not reusable for at least one more shot, they are not good enough.
I haven't tested both powders in a .58, cross referencing speed, but in my .69, 2F gives higher vel. than 3F with all charges I use.
Yes - that 165gr. 2F charge did kick badly with the 675gr. slug in that Hawken.
That rifle, in 1977. 34" x 1 1/8" x .58 straight octagonal. Rifle weight almost 11 pounds.

[Daryl]

Another thought about the wads, is that they are covered in soot(black). That means they are too thin. The cuts show poorly smoothed crown. The lands should not cut, but conform with the ball into the muzzle.
I have loaded .690" pure lead balls with a .0235" denim patch in my .69 and that patch was reusable. It was highly stressed with land marks on the recovered patch but not cut at all, nor worn through.
Reusable it was. When loading combos like that, you HAVE to INTEND to get it even with the muzzle with one smack of the palm. It does take some force but is not impossible (for this old guy).
It's almost as hard to seat a W.W. ball flush with the muzzle using that same patch and a smaller .683" ball (when I was 20 years younger).
Lucky for me the rifle shoots well now with a thin patch of .021".  When new, it would not shoot anything thinner than 12 ounce denim I measured at .030" compressed with calipers and .025 with the mic.

[Dphariss]

I would run a TIGHT wad of 0000 oiled steel wool up and down the bore about 20 strokes. This will remover any burrs and slightly degrade any roughness. This was one of Don King’s standard fixes for Douglas ML barrels. If this does not help look for reamer marks on the lands.  If they are pretty aggressive order a barrel lap from some place like MSC. Check the diameters and they are designed to be expandable. 9/16” will be .562 and there may be metric that is closer to .58. It will also even out the tight and loose spots. Order some 400 grit Clover Compound with the lap. This will smooth the tops of the lands.
Or use better patching. A lot of the cotton that come from the wrong side of the Pacific is very weak. Make sure its 100 natural fabric too. If you can find some 7-10 ounce linen it might solve the problem. Just be sure its 100% Linen/flax.
But you might also slug it and see if it has tight and loose spots that are really serious or if its tight at the breech and  loose at the muzzle. You would be surprised at what you might find in some of the ML barrels out there. I have seen a Green Mountain that I suspect was smuggled out by an employee, really rough. But remember that the GOOD cut rifled barrels are about 500-600 for a 20” unmentionable barrel. And they last about 1-3 years in competition depending on the number of matches shot. Good button rifled barrels are about like a ML barrel price wise. But they are also free from errors that are common in many “custom” ML barrels. Tighter at the muzzle is not all that bad unless its really loose at the breech. And what Daryl said about the crown.

[flatsguide]

Thanks for all that info. I did run a tight ‘patch’ of 4 ought steel wool down the barrel and avoided the crown. Then a final ‘lap’ with JB. I definitely loads easier and I was pleased surprised there were no tight and loose sections in the bore (Rice bbl). It’s a round bottom bottom rifling which makes it more difficult to steel IMO. Right now the rifle is torn down for engraving.
Thank you all again for all your help!
Cheers Richard

[Daryl]

Something we have used on other people's barrels to "save" them is maroon coloured Scotch Brite. I am referring to barrels that have been cleaned over and over with boiling hot water. They are usually frosted or lightly pitted end to end due to the accumulated effect of flash rusting that occurs in many barrel alloys when cleaned with very hot water.
A small square of Scotch Brite on a jag, with some sort of lube. We used WD40 to good effect. About 40 to 60 passes is what worked best for us.
The Scotch Brite would also 'repair' rough or feathered lands.

[HighUintas]

Thanks for all that info. I did run a tight ‘patch’ of 4 ought steel wool down the barrel and avoided the crown. Then a final ‘lap’ with JB. I definitely loads easier and I was pleased surprised there were no tight and loose sections in the bore (Rice bbl). It’s a round bottom bottom rifling which makes it more difficult to steel IMO. Right now the rifle is torn down for engraving.
Thank you all again for all your help!
Cheers Richard

Did you ever get the rifle back together and try shooting again?

I have a 58 colerain with round grooves, and I believe the grooves are 0.016 deep. It sure does take some force to get a tight patch started! I'm actually considering getting a coning tool for it.

Anyway, I was going to let you know some numbers on Joann's materials that they currently have (at least in the last year).

These are all measured w harbor freight calipers, squeezed between thumb and forefinger as hard as I can, which measures the same as some Hornady calipers that I broke. Measured after washing (once w soap, once without soap, then dried).

12oz denim - 0.022/3
Duck canvas natural color - 0.022/3
Bull denim natural/tan color - 0.020

I get no cutting or damaging of the patch from the muzzle when loading it. I used Daryl's crown smoothing technique. They are tough to get started though. After starting, it goes down smoothly.

It took me probably 5 rounds of maroon/grey 3m pads on a jag and super tight 0000 steel wool on a jag to get the bore smoothed... It was incredibly rough when new. Now it goes down nice and easy after getting it started.

I can shoot all day using TOW mink oil and these patches. I would guess it's accurate but I can't shoot worth a darn so I don't know.