Author Topic: turkey and shot?  (Read 5288 times)

jim m

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turkey and shot?
« on: January 28, 2010, 11:50:09 PM »
what is the advantage of the magnum or copper coated shot over lead shot, when it comes to turkey hunting. inquiring minds want to know

Harnic

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2010, 12:04:16 AM »

Any shot that is harder than lead alloy will pattern tighter Jim.  It suffers less damage heading down the bore.  With most muzzle loaders there's little or no choke, so harder shot is a definite bonus for tight patterns.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:04:38 AM by Harnic »

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2010, 02:50:54 PM »
Typical chilled/magnum lead shot runs 8-13 Bhn with most testing at 9-11 Bhn.  Cu plating adds very little to no hardness, Ni plating is just slightly better because the plating is very thin.  If you're not going any further than loading from the as-purchased shot bag, either Cu or Ni plated are of benefit more-so for penetration depth than patterning.  The primary benefit of the Cu/Ni plated pellets is the reduced friction losses caused by drag on feathers/fur/hide thus increasing penetration depth in a trade-off of a slightly smaller wound channel. 

Plated shot is sized the same as non-plated and the lighter Ni/Cu plating alloy and a harder base lead alloy do create a slight loss of mass so it is proper to increase by one pellet size when going to a so-called magnum or plated shot.  For example, a typical #7.5 shot pellet of 9 Bhn all Pb alloy will have a mass of about 1.25gr while the same size pellet in Ni plated 12 Bhn alloy is about 1.09gr or roughly the same mass as a typical all Pb #8 pellet of about 1.07gr.

As Harry said, any additional hardness will help with pattern maintenance simply by helping to reduce damage on firing but a suitable wad column with cushion is a must and often times buffering material helps too but the biggest benefit will come from using a shot sleeve or cup to keep the pellets off the bore.  Spin on the pellets that's imparted from contact with the bore is the biggest pattern killer and even more-so than deformed pellets.  Aside from using a sleeve/cup, the next easiest pattern improving method is duplexing the shot sizes such as #5/7; #4/6 or #3/5 and it is done 60/40 by mass, not volume with 60% being of the larger size pellets.  Best to use a clear plastic container like from peanut butter, add the weighed shot and turn end over end gently so as not to dimple the pellets until they are evenly mixed.  A square, or nearly so, payload loading combined with sufficient wad cushioning will give higher velocity reducing the downrange drop while increasing the available momentum via mass at velocity.  The primary goal is to keep the SSL as low as possible in order to keep the PPD as high as possible.  It never ceased to amaze me at how the modern suppository gun and ammo mfg's have corrupted the basics purely for sales hype - rifle bullets are getting lighter & faster while shotgun loads are getting heavier and slower ... the exact opposite of what works best on both accounts.  Still doesn't make sense to me how anyone can justify a "MAGNUM" load that kicks like a mule yet only produces 1115 fps at the muzzle resulting in 16" of drop in 55yds, an average PPD of just 1.3% thanks partly to the 20'+ SSL and not to mention the greatly reduced impact energy levels....  Perhaps it's just me but a 6" drop with a 6% PPD sure seems to work a whole lot better in the field than the so-called "MAGNUM's".

Commercial magnum shot alloy is 4-6% Sb (antimony) with a 0.5-1.0% As (arsenic) but it's quenched, not heat treated which is why the Bhn is low but the alloy typically used will only result in about 18 Bhn when heat treated.  The hardest shot is obtained by using WW alloy and heat treating which results in producing shot upwards of 27-30 Bhn thus eliminating the need for plating.  Heat treating shot isn't as easy as doing larger bullets/balls, the oven must have excellent temperature control obtained by using a combination of thermal barriers or convection control combined with tight temperature control via a fast response thermocouple and digital pyrometer.  Typical bi-metallic t-stat controlled ovens will result in either failure to obtain/maintain critical temperature, a pile of discs as opposed to pellets or puddle of what used to be pellets.  Both heat & hold as well as the quenching operation must be tightly controlled as if you allow the pellets to air-quench prior to hitting the water bath, the resultant Bhn will be lower.
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Offline WaterFowl

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 04:19:54 PM »
I found # 6 Heavi-shot superior in patterning over any lead shot tested.....
here's a 35 yard pattern out of a T/C new Englander with a turkey choke tube.This is a repeatable pattern.



I spent many hours at the pattern board this is what I have found to pattern best in this 12 GA.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 04:04:00 AM by WaterFowl »

Offline axelp

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2010, 04:43:57 PM »
I tried ITX non-lead shot and it patterned pretty good out of my fowler. Its a Tungsten/iron/? combination... harder than bismuth, but softer than heavyshot or other tungsten-based products.

Ken
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roundball

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 04:46:13 PM »
I copied Aspen's turkey load in and found it to be outstanding in my Full jug choked .62cal...I'm not much into all the various ballistics details and my only measure as a hunter is what happened when I tripped the sear...so far I'm 2 for 2, dropping a couple in their tracks at 40 and 30 yards respectively with his load.

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

Daryl

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 04:54:50 PM »
Super-tight pattern Fowl.  I was surprised you used a 28" circle and 35 yards,  Does the gun range you used have something to do with available range or the range you shoot from a blind?  The reason I ask, is the common diameters and range for patterning have been 40 yards and 30", since about the mid 1800's, is all.
The concentration in that 18" core (usually 20") is especially tight.  THAT is a long range load. Bravo - nothing like spending a bit of time counting pellets in and pellets on paper.  It is very much superior to shooting at a smaller target as it shows the whole pattern for concentration as well as any voids or weak areas.
That would not be a good load for use on snipe in the tight bush. Kinda like shooting them with a rifle.  The wonderful thing about patterning and developing loads for the pelter is on the way to that tight shooting long range load, you've probably come across loads that are more like 'spreader' loads, perfect for close-in shooting.

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 08:03:56 PM »
Brovo Fl-flinter - that's a nice piece of technical writing!
Great information.

jim m

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 09:41:23 PM »
thanks this helps. I have over 40lbs of regular lead shot that I bought several years ago. I'm already in shock thinking about the cost of some of the better shot

Daryl

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 03:40:06 AM »
Jim- you can work up good loads with lead - might take a bit longer, but then, you might hit a good combination right off the bat.

Offline WaterFowl

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 05:20:04 AM »
Daryl--35 yards is my comfort range (for turkeys)with 6 Hevi-shot .so I pattern at the far end- just so happen to make a 28" card board circle...I enjoy working up loads for patterns-found it much more challenging than with the rifles..I waterfowl hunt so I have spent much time finding my"happy loads"Have shot ducks-geese-turkeys this year all first for me with a flint..Its just so much more rewarding than going bag-bang-bang.I try to call them in close and hit them as hard as I can..My only regret is not using Flints earlier in my life. Thanks for the kind words..

Daryl

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Re: turkey and shot?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 05:33:00 PM »
FLFlinter makes an excellent point about plated shot. I found the #2 copper plated shot by Winchester to be quite soft and prone to producing a lot of fliers out of the pattern, while the shot made in Alberta back then, "Blimeister" on the bag, was very hard, albeit mostly not round, however it's #2's and #3's patterned splendidly in my 20, 12 and 10 bores. I got the 10 to 9 run pattern after pattern of 94% and 96%, rights and lefts at 40 yards for geese, with #5's tunning 88% and 92%.  The smaller bores usually kept 86% or better with fine shot and 90% with the hard "B" #2's and #3's.  With copper plated shot, 70%, ie: standard full choke was about it for any of the guns.  I have read that nickel plated shot is harder than copper - but I'm talking lead, not iron or steel or bismuth.