Author Topic: Sub Powders & Corrosion  (Read 24733 times)

Daryl

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2010, 04:40:32 PM »
Here is some Bertram brass, calibre .577/450, shot with T-7, washed then tumbled in walnut husk media then put away for a few years.  Double D. a Montana resident and owner of this brass has never shot anything buy T-7 in it.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2010, 05:28:56 PM »
i have noticed that some of my friends' older stainless steel in-lines that have digested alot of Pyrodex  have eroded or what looks like gas cutting on the face of their breech plugs and in the part of the barrel where the powder sits when loaded. they are meticulous cleaners of their rifles so i can only assume Pyrodex must have a higher combustion temp? Mad Monk? Dan? anyone?

There are a wide variety of stainless steels with various levels of corrosion/erosion resistance. Hard to say what they make these out of I think 416 is typical in the modern world, but the breeches might be 303 or 304 since its common SS screw material.
So far as corrosion/erosion, the stuff (depending on the specific alloy) will stand up to corrosive atmospheres and then, according to one test I read of a stainless revolver, starts to decompose as time passes in a corrosive environment (salt spray was used IIRC). It just starts to come apart.
In the ML it is possible that the perchlorate has some effect on the iron in the stainless and it gets eaten away and the other components of the alloy fall apart as  this component disappears.
Speculation.
Even non-magnetic stainless like 303-304 have significant levels of iron in them.

I have no experience with stainless and BP or the subs. Nor do I have any experience with 777, I was of the opinion that it had about 1/2 the perchlorate that Pyrodex has. Apparently this is not the case. I do know that corrosive substitutes have destroyed a lot of guns, even when people clean them. I learned all I needed to know from shooting some in company guns and seeing the effects when it was used by fellow competitors and customers when I was more heavily involved with the BPCRs.

I have won P-dex at matches and would not want the maker to know what I did with it.

I stuck my head in the meat grinder years ago concerning a different product and it made me somewhat cautious. I unknowingly kicked hornets nest it would seem, I did not know they were getting sued at the time... So I try not to irritate organizations with lawyers on continuous retainer.
Basically you have to be REALLY careful even if telling the truth.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

fix

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2010, 05:58:02 PM »
Daryl: I considered it common knowledge that black powder was corrosive. The newer black powder (Goex) is considerably cleaner and less corrosive than the stuff my grandfather used to use (which I once inherited a considerable amount of). Every source I have read about black powder shooting mentions the corrosiveness of black powder, perhaps it has gotten better over the years, but from what I can tell it was and probably still is very corrosive.

I haven't compared the Pyrodex to black powder personally. Perhaps I should perform an experiment in some barrel like steel.

At any rate from what I could find on the internet. Neither is considerably corrosive until burned. The only time my guns remain uncleaned is between hunts, when I haven't fired the weapon, and leave the load in. This could explain why I haven't seen any damage in my own guns.

Let me make it very clear that I am not trying to start an argument here. I use Pyrodex, and simply haven't noticed any of the corrosion that others have reported. I have to assume that even if the Pyrodex is more corrosive, proper cleaning and care can eliminate the bad effects. I am always willing to learn more about the subject, and would  very much like to see more information on the topic if any of you guys have any. I take the maintenance of my guns very seriously, and would stop using Pyrodex immediately if I thought it was doing harm to them. 

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2010, 06:26:52 PM »
Daryl: I considered it common knowledge that black powder was corrosive. The newer black powder (Goex) is considerably cleaner and less corrosive than the stuff my grandfather used to use (which I once inherited a considerable amount of). Every source I have read about black powder shooting mentions the corrosiveness of black powder, perhaps it has gotten better over the years, but from what I can tell it was and probably still is very corrosive.

I haven't compared the Pyrodex to black powder personally. Perhaps I should perform an experiment in some barrel like steel.

At any rate from what I could find on the internet. Neither is considerably corrosive until burned. The only time my guns remain uncleaned is between hunts, when I haven't fired the weapon, and leave the load in. This could explain why I haven't seen any damage in my own guns.

Let me make it very clear that I am not trying to start an argument here. I use Pyrodex, and simply haven't noticed any of the corrosion that others have reported. I have to assume that even if the Pyrodex is more corrosive, proper cleaning and care can eliminate the bad effects. I am always willing to learn more about the subject, and would  very much like to see more information on the topic if any of you guys have any. I take the maintenance of my guns very seriously, and would stop using Pyrodex immediately if I thought it was doing harm to them. 

Corrosiveness with black powder residue comes in two forms.

The first is that fact that any propellant powder based on the use of potassium nitrate will produce potassium carbonate as a major portion of the solid residue left by the powder.  Potassium carbonate is also known as potash.  Potash is corrosive to brass and ferous metals.  The corrosion is in the form of very thin films of surface rusting. 

When black powder companies purified their own saltpeter (potassium nitrate) they usually puified it to no detectable amounts of chloride in the product.
With du Pont/GOEX there was a change in the industry in 1968 that went way beyond their control.  Up until 1968 almost all of the saltpeter produced in the U.S. had been converted from man-made sodium nitrate.  Then in 1968 the Vicksburg Chemical Company went into production using potassium chloride, as a feed stock, using nitric acid to convert the potassium chloride to potassium nitrate.  This chemical conversion proess had an effeciency of about 98%.  Meaning that up to 2% of the potassium chloride would remain unreached in the finished product.
Then in 2000, Vicksburg Chemical went bankrupt for a variety of reasons.  GOEX then had to change to potassium nitrate produced in Chile.  Which is free of any residual potassium chloride.


When you look at the very good photos of the damaged brass cartridges in a previous posting you are looking at potassium carbonate damage to the brass.  Notice the discoloration.  I have commented a number of times on this board regarding the use of potassium carbonate (potash) to discolor brass parts on a rifle.  With brass the potash will leach copper out of the brass alloy.  At first you will see bright green coatings form on the brass which will then darken with age and exposure to the air.

When looking at chloride pit corrosion on ferous metals or brass you really need to use some sort of magnifier.  At first the pitting is fairly tiny in size but they will grow in size with continued exposure.

Whenever I checked these different powders for corrosiveness I would use brass plates to test powder residue corrosiveness.  Then place the plates under a microscope tied into the computer and photograph the plates at various levels of magnification.  The photos then went into the reports on the various powders.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2010, 06:32:15 PM »
i have noticed that some of my friends' older stainless steel in-lines that have digested alot of Pyrodex  have eroded or what looks like gas cutting on the face of their breech plugs and in the part of the barrel where the powder sits when loaded. they are meticulous cleaners of their rifles so i can only assume Pyrodex must have a higher combustion temp? Mad Monk? Dan? anyone?

There are a wide variety of stainless steels with various levels of corrosion/erosion resistance. Hard to say what they make these out of I think 416 is typical in the modern world, but the breeches might be 303 or 304 since its common SS screw material.
So far as corrosion/erosion, the stuff (depending on the specific alloy) will stand up to corrosive atmospheres and then, according to one test I read of a stainless revolver, starts to decompose as time passes in a corrosive environment (salt spray was used IIRC). It just starts to come apart.
In the ML it is possible that the perchlorate has some effect on the iron in the stainless and it gets eaten away and the other components of the alloy fall apart as  this component disappears.
Speculation.
Even non-magnetic stainless like 303-304 have significant levels of iron in them.

I have no experience with stainless and BP or the subs. Nor do I have any experience with 777, I was of the opinion that it had about 1/2 the perchlorate that Pyrodex has. Apparently this is not the case. I do know that corrosive substitutes have destroyed a lot of guns, even when people clean them. I learned all I needed to know from shooting some in company guns and seeing the effects when it was used by fellow competitors and customers when I was more heavily involved with the BPCRs.

I have won P-dex at matches and would not want the maker to know what I did with it.

I stuck my head in the meat grinder years ago concerning a different product and it made me somewhat cautious. I unknowingly kicked hornets nest it would seem, I did not know they were getting sued at the time... So I try not to irritate organizations with lawyers on continuous retainer.
Basically you have to be REALLY careful even if telling the truth.

Dan

Dan,

Remember I worked 30 years in a vinyl CHLORIDE facility.

All of the equipment in the plant was made from various grades of stainless steel.  One day we had a dust collector catwalk break free and fall two stories to the bottom of the "dust house".  The support brackets were brought into my lab to be looked at under high magnification.  The "granules" of iron in the stainless were gone.  Leached out of the alloy by the water rich atmosphere with chlorides in the water.  Under the microscope the stainless looked like a chrome sponge.  With the loss of the iron the brittle property of the chrome took over.  The last guy out of the dust house had slammed the door.  The jarring broke the brackets.  Luckily no workers were still on the catwalk.

Bill K.

Naphtali

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2010, 10:52:21 PM »
What cpompounds result from combustion of potassium perchlorate?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 07:59:01 AM »
Hi Bill
That was just a guess.
I stumbled across the iron content of 303 looking at something else, I had not paid any attention previous and realized that the iron being attacked might be why the test showed the SS revolver withstanding corrosive testing for quite some time but then the metal started to just come apart.
I use 303-304 for cleaning rod shafts. Sometimes I get some in that is acid etched apparently as a step in the rolling process. They must clean it with acid and sometimes it does not get properly rinsed.

The chlorate powders, as you know, first produce a very fine pit in the bore so that is looks frosted, not reddish rusted and its easily missed if the owner does not know what he is looking for since it often does not look rusty. As it progresses it begins to look like an old M-1 or 03 barrel that has been used for years with chlorate primers.
The thing that amazed me when I was passing judgment on such things was the level of pitting that people could not see until they were told "this is pitting".
Its really interesting to look at early stage pitting under some magnification its like the steel is being dissolved forming little sharp edged pits.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

fix

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 05:01:47 PM »

So, now i have more questions. Since I don't have anything that will magnify the inside of my barrel, how do I determine if there is actually pitting. I could just take your word for it, but you've probably already guessed that I'm not very good at that.

And, I still wonder if prompt and proper cleaning wouldn't eliminate potential problems. I would never claim that Pyrodex is not corrosive, it obviously is. What I wonder about is whether proper maintenance would make it a safe powder regardless of the corrosiveness. And I'm not just being stubborn here. It is simply the easiest powder to get around here, and it does seem to work well in some guns.

because of the availability, people are going to use this powder. The store I bought mine from sold at least twenty cans of it during deer season alone. So, if the powder is going to get used, is it possible that the corrosive effects could be reduced or removed by properly cleaning the gun after shooting.

Would you suggest that the corrosion occurs instantly at ignition, or does the residue have to remain in contact with the metal for a prolonged time to cause damage.

Again, not trying to start an argument, just curious about whether I should discard the Pyrodex I have altogether, or burn it up by running it through one of the rifles. My guns usually get cleaned within two hours of shooting. During deer season (cold weather), I often swab the barrel out before I even field dress the deer because of the water that condenses in the barrel after shooting.

What I'm trying to figure out is if, using my normal cleaning procedure, damage is being caused to my gun.
Thanks.

I know I'm difficult, but I just can't help it.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 06:49:42 PM »
What cpompounds result from combustion of potassium perchlorate?

When potassium perchlorate is used in a propellant composition the end product is potassium chloride.  When the powder is burning the potassium perchlorate simply gives up the oxygen atoms to support combustion leaving potassium chloride.

Whenever we think of chloride corrosion around here we think of all of the common salt, sodium chloride, used in the winter on our streets and roads.  I think back to some of the 1950's and 1960's hot rods.  How fast the road salt corroded the bodies of these cars.  Then here in eastern PA you were to avoid buying used cars that came out of New Jersey where they spent a lot of time along the coast getting salt spray from the ocean.
Chlorides, be they sodium or potassium are rather corrosive.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 06:55:16 PM »
Hi Bill
That was just a guess.
I stumbled across the iron content of 303 looking at something else, I had not paid any attention previous and realized that the iron being attacked might be why the test showed the SS revolver withstanding corrosive testing for quite some time but then the metal started to just come apart.
I use 303-304 for cleaning rod shafts. Sometimes I get some in that is acid etched apparently as a step in the rolling process. They must clean it with acid and sometimes it does not get properly rinsed.

The chlorate powders, as you know, first produce a very fine pit in the bore so that is looks frosted, not reddish rusted and its easily missed if the owner does not know what he is looking for since it often does not look rusty. As it progresses it begins to look like an old M-1 or 03 barrel that has been used for years with chlorate primers.
The thing that amazed me when I was passing judgment on such things was the level of pitting that people could not see until they were told "this is pitting".
Its really interesting to look at early stage pitting under some magnification its like the steel is being dissolved forming little sharp edged pits.

Dan


Dan,

Something of a post script to the tale of the stainless steel brackets that failed in the "dust house".
One of the engineers was tasked to solve the problem.  He found that the best thing to use for these brackets was plain old wrought iron.  It being more chloride resistant than steel alloys.  So he haunted places that did wrought iron railings and came up with some heavy pre-WWII wrought iron which was then used to fabricate new brackets.  This gave me a new view of the old charcoal forged wrought iron ML barrels.  So while what we think of as modern steel barrels that came into use in the mid-1800's may have been a step backwards as far as powder residue corrosion goes, thought an increase in strength.
Life is full of trade offs.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 07:08:02 PM »

So, now i have more questions. Since I don't have anything that will magnify the inside of my barrel, how do I determine if there is actually pitting. I could just take your word for it, but you've probably already guessed that I'm not very good at that.

And, I still wonder if prompt and proper cleaning wouldn't eliminate potential problems. I would never claim that Pyrodex is not corrosive, it obviously is. What I wonder about is whether proper maintenance would make it a safe powder regardless of the corrosiveness. And I'm not just being stubborn here. It is simply the easiest powder to get around here, and it does seem to work well in some guns.

because of the availability, people are going to use this powder. The store I bought mine from sold at least twenty cans of it during deer season alone. So, if the powder is going to get used, is it possible that the corrosive effects could be reduced or removed by properly cleaning the gun after shooting.

Would you suggest that the corrosion occurs instantly at ignition, or does the residue have to remain in contact with the metal for a prolonged time to cause damage.

Again, not trying to start an argument, just curious about whether I should discard the Pyrodex I have altogether, or burn it up by running it through one of the rifles. My guns usually get cleaned within two hours of shooting. During deer season (cold weather), I often swab the barrel out before I even field dress the deer because of the water that condenses in the barrel after shooting.

What I'm trying to figure out is if, using my normal cleaning procedure, damage is being caused to my gun.
Thanks.

I know I'm difficult, but I just can't help it.


When testing various powders I have shot Pyrodex and 777 in both of my percussion ignition rifles with no real problems.  The key in this is prompt cleaning.  At the end of the shooting session I would run several wet patches down the bore.  The crystals of potassium chloride are scattered over the surfaces in the bore.  The wet patches will remove most of them.  Then several dry patches followed by one or two grease or oil patches.  That would hold the gun until I got home.  Since they are both hooked breeches I would use the typical warm soapy water cleaning once home.  Then dry the barrel good.  A little alcohol sloshed in the bore followed by a few dry patches.  Then the oil or grease storage bore lube.  The next day I would riun a clean dry patch down the bore looking for any traces of rust.  If the patch came back with any rust on it I would clean the barrel again.  Then a few days later another check.

How fast the potassium chloride attacks the barrel will depend to a great degree on the level of relative humidity.  The attack on the metal, by the crystals, is classic electrolytic corrosion and requires a film of water on the surfaces of the crystals.  At low humidity there will not be enough water in the air to wet the surfaces of the crystals so there will be no corrosion.  At very high levels of relative humidity it will form a thin liquid film in the bore and this will not result in damage, i.e., pitting.  The amount of water with the crystals must be such that each crystal becomes a corrosion cell site.
This is why is some very dry areas the shooters use Pyrodex with no problems even if they are not carefull with their cleaning timing or methods.  But in some areas the pitting can be started in a few hours.  On test panels I have watched it start to pit in only 3 or 4 hours.  Then at very low humidity there is little, if any, effect on the metal.

Bill K.

fix

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 07:29:15 PM »
Thanks for the info Mad Monk. I think you answered my questions.

I still prefer the real stuff, but will shoot whatever I can get if I don't have a choice.
I imagine that my cleaning method is what keeps the pits out of my guns, but given the choice it makes sense to use a lower corrosive powder if possible.

I think my cleaning method is very similar to what you describe. Scalding hot water (with just a bit of soap in it). Let dry and while still very hot I swab out the barrel with dry patches. I then add the bore lube that stays in until I shoot it the next time.

I was taught that the water should be as hot as possible, so that the barrel dries quickly, and that all the swabbing and drying should occur before the barrel cools down much. My grandpa even believed that the final oil and lube should go in while the barrel is still hot in order for it to get into the pores of the metal. Don't know about all that, but I've done it the same way as he did for as long as I can remember, and have yet to notice any rust or corrosion in any of my barrels.

This has been a very interesting discussion.


Naphtali

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 10:30:03 PM »
Here is information from an elderly manuscript of mine. While I believe these data are accurate, I haven't looked at the material in more than a decade. It may be nonsense intermixed with fact. While none of the products of black powder combustion are chlorides, salts at temperature must be significantly corrosive??

What I'm unclear on is why black powder substitutes' corrosive compounds are [apparently] significantly more corrosive than black powder's cocktail of salts and corrosive gases.
***Follows is elderly manuscript text***
This is a generally accepted formula for black powder combustion:
Ignition temperature is about 315° C (600° F), and burning temperature is as high as 2200° C (4000° F) for a few milliseconds.

Slightly less than 56% (55.91%) of the powder charge is residue. The solids, all of which I believe are salts except the last three, are composed of the following compounds:   
Potassium carbonate (K2CO3).
Potassium sulfate (K2SO4).
Potassium sulfide (K2S).
Potassium thiosulfate (K2S2O3).
Potassium thiocynate (KSCN).
Ammonium carbonate [(NH4)2CO3].
Carbon (C).
Sulfur (S).

Gases include:
Carbon dioxide (CO2).
Carbon monoxide (CO).
Methane (CH4).
Hydrogen sulfide (H2S).
Hydrogen (H2).
Nitrogen (N2).
***
The accepted chemical equation for combustion is:
KNO2 + 96 C + 30 S + 16 H2O Ζ 35 N2 + 56 CO2 + 14 CO + 3 CH4 + 2 H2S + 4 H2 + 19 K2CO3 + 7 K2SO4 + 8 K2S2O3 + 2 K2S + 2 KSCN + (NH4)2CO3 + C + S.

Combustion liberates about 680 kg-cal of heat per kilogram and forms 600 grams of solids and 278 liters of gas.

Black and smokeless propellants store energy that can be measured as British Thermal Units.  Smokeless powders store more energy per unit of weight. Generally, double-base smokeless powders — that is, ones that contain nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine — store more energy than single-base powders, ones containing only nitrocellulose. Cordite, used for many years by Great Britain in .303 British rifle ammunition, is a double-base smokeless powder. Its stored energy is 2295 BTUs. Du Pont IMR 4198 is a single-base powder intended for use in .30-06 rifle ammunition. It stores 1815 BTUs.

Du Pont FFg black powder stores 1420 BTUs; FFFg stores 1470. Smokeless powders store between 120 and 156 percent of black powders. What does this mean? For black powder to achieve like amounts of energy acting upon the bullet, you must use significantly larger quantities of it. But wait, there’s more. You will need still more powder because black powder residue becomes additional ejecta to be propelled from the muzzle. Smokeless powder has essentially no residue.
***End manuscript text***

What cpompounds result from combustion of potassium perchlorate?

When potassium perchlorate is used in a propellant composition the end product is potassium chloride.  When the powder is burning the potassium perchlorate simply gives up the oxygen atoms to support combustion leaving potassium chloride.

Whenever we think of chloride corrosion around here we think of all of the common salt, sodium chloride, used in the winter on our streets and roads.  I think back to some of the 1950's and 1960's hot rods.  How fast the road salt corroded the bodies of these cars.  Then here in eastern PA you were to avoid buying used cars that came out of New Jersey where they spent a lot of time along the coast getting salt spray from the ocean.
Chlorides, be they sodium or potassium are rather corrosive.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 03:49:15 AM »
Naphtali,

Rather than waste bandwidth with a full quote of your posting.

The elderly manuscript text is quoting some of the work done by Noble & Abel in England in the 1860's.

Note the lack of chlorides in the products of combustion.  The powders they worked with had been prepared with very high-purity potassium nitrate.  99.9% minimum purity.  Not even parts per million of chlorides.

Some of the chemical compounds they identified would be found only in trace amounts.  With solid products of combustion the potassium carbonate is the greates amount.  Potassium sulfate in a lesser amount.  Depending on the powder used you could see 3 parts of potassium carbonate for every one part of potassium sulfate.  In another powder you could see a 4 carbonate to one sulfate ratio.

In the gases.  There will be variations in the proportion of carbon dioxide to carbon monoxide.  With the so-called "standard" 75-15-10 ingredient ratio powder it is actually starved for oxygen during powder combustion in an closed vessel (or gunbarrel).  Sporting powders, such as the present Swiss powder, were/are formulated with 78 parts of potassium nitrate and a reduction in the amount of charcoal and sulfur.  So the powder combustion yields more fully oxidized/stable products of combustion.

The finding of varying amounts of hydrogen is used to make the claim that black powder residue is acidic in nature and therefore corrosive because of it.  That is utter and total nonsense.  The potassium carbonate is a moderate caustic, potash.  To become acidic the hydrogen sulfide would have to be  combined with moisture  If there is enough moisture present to give a sulfur-bearing acid with the hydrogen sulfude that same moisture would cause the potash to "kill" any traces of acid formed.  If you run a pH on the bore residue with black powder you find it is rather alkaline and not acidic.

As far as the heat and gases go.
A black powder formulated with 78 parts of potassium nitrate would evolve more heat than a powder formulated with 75 parts of potassium nitrate.  At the same time the sporting powder will produce a lower volume of gases compared to a 75 parts of potassium nitrate powder.  That being if the weights are the same before combustion.

By altering the properties of the charcoal used and varying the proportions of the ingredients you can vary the amount of gases produced and the total calories of heat evolved.

This playing with heat versus gases was used when formulating cannon powders versus sporting powders.  You could alter these to best suit what sort of projectile you were heaving out of the gun.  This degree of flexibility in what you can do with black powder is why it is still around and still in use in certain applications.

Bill K.

Naphtali

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 04:49:04 AM »
Naphtali,

Rather than waste bandwidth with a full quote of your posting. . .

This playing with heat versus gases was used when formulating cannon powders versus sporting powders.  You could alter these to best suit what sort of projectile you were heaving out of the gun.  This degree of flexibility in what you can do with black powder is why it is still around and still in use in certain applications.

Bill K.
AHA! Many thanks for your clarity.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 07:33:37 AM by Naphtali »

frontier gander

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 05:31:49 AM »
in a flinter, try American Pioneer 3f.   Im shooting the 2f in my traditions kentucky and it does pretty darned good. I still use 4f goex in the pan as its needed. Th 3f should go off just like the real stuff.

Daryl

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2010, 06:25:57 AM »
Mad Monk - do you know anything about this American Pioneer powder? Obviously by the name, they are giving it a name to ensure faith in it's properties, normal advertising for the day, of course.
What about Shockey's powder? Is it re-labeled something else, perhaps?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:26:46 AM by Daryl »

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2010, 06:33:36 PM »
Mad Monk - do you know anything about this American Pioneer powder? Obviously by the name, they are giving it a name to ensure faith in it's properties, normal advertising for the day, of course.
What about Shockey's powder? Is it re-labeled something else, perhaps?

If I get into this too deep I'll need to hire a body guard and somebody to start my car for me in the morning.

This American Pie-on-ear powder used to be known as Clean Shot.  When Clean Shot started making "pellets" Hodgdon took them into court and won a bunch of money on a patent infringement suit.  So the guy folded Clean Shot Technologies and reformed the company as this American Pioneer Powder Company.

It is the usual ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate formula.  This American Pioneer Powder Company made Pinnacle Powder that GOEX had been selling.  GOEX took a bit of a beating on that one.  That one I can discuss only in private conversations.  The dealings with these different people in the ascorbic acid powder business is what put me back in the good graces of GOEX in 2005.

Near as I can figure the Shockey's Gold powder is nothing more than the APP with some yellow coloring added.

Clean Shot Technology rose out of the ashes of Legend Products which had put out Black Canyon Powder.  Legend Products rose out of the adhes of Golden Powder.

Soon after Legend Products was formed there was a court battle between the investors in the project.  The original inventor was thrown out.
One guy, Warren Fay, went on to try one known as Longrifle Powder.  Never made it to market.  He then switched from ascorbic acid to fruit sugar and that reached the market in the form of the now defunct GOEX Clear Shot Powder.  Then another guy came out of the litigation with the right to exploit the patent and he went on to start Black Mag which has been around in several versions.

I wish I had the money that was lost in these various projects.  I would be rich beyond my wildest dreams.


BIll K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2010, 07:05:02 PM »
Forgot to mention.

You may start seeing adds and Internet discussion on yet another version of the Black Mag powder. This one is Black Mag XP.  I looked for it last week at Cabela's but they did not stock it.
 Price is $29.95 for a plastic container holding 10 ounces of powder.

The claim that was made to a cowboy action shooter I know was that you can reduce your charge by 1/2 when using this powder.  Using half the charge you would normally use with black powder will produce the same velocity.
When pushed it was stated that this powder does contain potassium perchlorate.  Two years ago I had looked at the patent covering the Black Mag 3 powder.  Contains a healthy slug of perchlorate.
For those with an industrial chemistry background.  The description of the production process where they co-precipitate potassium nitrate and potassium perchlorate is a riot.  Almost describing it as a new chemical compound.

It was also stated that this powder, and its combustion residue, is not corrosive in the gun or in fired brass in cartridge applications.  This one I must see!!  a non-corrosive perchlorate???

Bill K.

Daryl

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2010, 07:44:36 PM »
Thanks ever so much Bill. Here's one of those declared, non-crossive percholates at work, after being cleaned properly, tumbled, then stored. Cases are .577/450's - not cheap, in other words.  Hey - pretty much looks like the interior of that barrel that started this line of discussions this time around.

frontier gander

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 09:41:50 PM »
jim shockeys gold isnt yellow, Its  dark gray to black.  It ignites easier VS APP and has a little more oomph and burns cleaner, leaving less residue. Ive been shooting a bunch of it so far and love it. Turns a 3" @100 yards cva hawken .50cal into a 1" shooter @ 100 yards. Cuts hole after hole at 50 yards.  Never was able to get that with black powder or even pyrodex.  + The fast that it cleans up with just a few water soaked patches is nice.

Daryl

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 09:58:44 PM »
Great - glad it works for you, frontiergander - I think I'll stick with real BP, just the same.  I suppose if I had a CVA, I might shoot it as well - if it was available here, it isn't.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:59:28 PM by Daryl »

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 11:05:44 PM »
jim shockeys gold isnt yellow, Its  dark gray to black.  It ignites easier VS APP and has a little more oomph and burns cleaner, leaving less residue. Ive been shooting a bunch of it so far and love it. Turns a 3" @100 yards cva hawken .50cal into a 1" shooter @ 100 yards. Cuts hole after hole at 50 yards.  Never was able to get that with black powder or even pyrodex.  + The fast that it cleans up with just a few water soaked patches is nice.

I looked at some when it first came out.

The grey to black color tells me that they did with it what they did with the Pinnacle for GOEX.  Added a bit of charcoal which you see as the color and it lowers the ignition temperature.

I worked with the ascorbic acid powders since the days of the first Golden Powder.  When GOEX told me that their Pinnacle would work in a flinter without having to resort to black powder I was skeptical.  Then when GOEX had me look at it I found that it did work in a flinter even in cold weather.  So I took some apart and found the charcoal.  GOEX's Pinnacle is a dark black color with the charcoal.

The difference in velocity between the regular APP and the Shockey's Gold is mainly a thing with lot to lot differences.  They use ball nills to grind the ingredients.  The ingredients are simply then made damp and formed into large agglomerations that pass for grains.  Ingredient particle size out of the ball mill plays a large part in burn rates and they really can't control particle size all that well out of the ball mills.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 11:15:24 PM »
jim shockeys gold isnt yellow, Its  dark gray to black.  It ignites easier VS APP and has a little more oomph and burns cleaner, leaving less residue.   + The fast that it cleans up with just a few water soaked patches is nice.

With the ascorbic acid based powders you get only potassium carbonate as a product of combustion.  Highly soluble in water.  When shooting at high humidity you will see it quickly form a liquid film in the bore shortly after you fire the gun.  This is why APP claims the powder to be self-lubricating in the bore.

Normally with these powders you see 70 parts of potassium nitrate and 30 parts of ascorbic acid.  Any charcoal used is down around 1 to 2 parts of the total formula.

These ascorbic acid powders burn cool with very little heat being produced.  You get no heat fusing of the potassium carbonate during powder combustion so most of the potassium carbonate is blown out of the bore in the propelling gases that leave the bore after the projectile.

Bill K.

frontier gander

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Re: Sub Powders & Corrosion
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 11:22:03 PM »
no high humidity here in CO so i guess thats why i never see any liquid any firing the rifle.  Powder works great in my flintlock, but i do still use 4f goex in the pan.

With APP-JSG, my barrels stay heated up longer  than when i use goex or pyrodex. I have to give the barrels Aprox 5 minutes to cool down between shots to get my best accuracy.