Accuracy questions

[smylee grouch]

A few things I'll try this Friday (after coning) are-

- Use a rest right behind muzzle
- Try a patch or wad over powder
- try a different powder ... I'm pretty sure I have 1.5 OE that good ole Herb gave me as well as some 2f OE

  I would encourage you to only change one variable at a time. Also to smooth the crown some more and NOT cone the muzzle.

[HighUintas]

Hi guys, I haven't been on in a few days and missed some of your comments. However, I'm sort of glad I did because I made a lot of progress today when I went shooting.

I didn't see the advices to not cone the muzzle until today... I received my joe Wood coming tool a few days ago and went ahead and did that.

I went and shot today and it seems to help quite a bit. I must have had a very tight muzzle. There's a reference line on the coning tool that measures an exact 0.580. I slipped the tool into the bore and noted where it stopped on the tool ... Pretty far away from that line. I measured roughly where the tool stopped on the bore and it measured 0.577 or less.

Getting the ball started with the coned muzzle is much easier. I still have to use my short starter because the load is so tight but it's very easy get it started and don't have to pound on it endlessly anymore.

Now when pushing the ball down the rest of the way with my rod (~4 inches down from muzzle and further) it remains much tighter down to the bottom where as before coning it, it would be very easy and almost loose feeling going down passed 4" from muzzle.

I think it's possible that the muzzle was sizing/squeezing the ball down too much for the size of the bore down lower and maybe I wasn't getting a good seal. That "loose feeling " had gotten progressively looser feeling the more I had tried to smooth the bore with grey 3m pads over the last year. Maybe I had actually removed a good bit of metal in the mid/lower bore relative to the muzzle! I'm not sure but that is my hypothesis because:

Last year, it was hard to get the ball down start to finish. Then I went through the bore with 3m pads many times trying to make sure I didn't hit the muzzle much. The patches I'd recovered early on looked fine.

After that smoothing, and last time I shot and posted targets in the beginning of this thread, it was still extremely hard the first 4" and then almost loose feeling. I wasn't able to get any of these patches so I can't verify if there was any issues with sealing the bore.

After coning, it's now really snug the first 4" and remains snug the rest of the way.

And my groups were wayyy better today than last time!

I did change a couple of other things, but I don't think they made the difference that I saw today.

I shot at a different range today and it was not covered so I put sight hoods on. I also measured out about 25 charges with a scale before going to remove the variable of my powder measure technique (maybe it's not good technique?).

Other than those two items everything was pretty much the same.

First target target if 70gr I was feeling a bit jumpy and had a couple of accidental trigger pulls. Orange dot is 1.5". I think this load is probably better than that... I think I struggled to see the dot a bit at first.




This target I was seeing if there was much difference when swabbing the bore between each shot. Same load. And.... A few young kids came to ask my about my "cannon". They were blown away and I let them shoot a couple times. They're the high shots.




This target I decided to test it 100gr 2f OE I had leftover from when I had a 45-90 1886. I sold that gun:/  aimed at lower Orange dot.



This target is a full 120gr measure, but all weighed with my scale. An actual 126gr 2f schuetzen by weight.



This is the 126gr schuetzen load at 105 yards! About a 5" group. There's an errant shot not on the target ... I think it might be one of those high holes.




Much better today and I'm feeling much better about my hunting trip.

[Daryl]

Looks like you found a solution. 100 O/E, or 126gr. Schutzen seems to be working for you much better.
I found with the Schutzen, I had to increase my powder charge for plinking out to 50yards with my .69, I had to increase the charge from
85gr. 2F GOEX, to 110gr. 2F Schutzen.  This gave me close to the same group size and point of impact as the much smaller, previous charge of GOEX.

[HighUintas]

I forgot to show my patches. I had a really hard time finding many. That range is so littered with others' trash it makes it hard to spot patches amongst it. I don't see any signs of tears or gas leaking, but it's hard to tell because of the dark denim color. The darker side was against the powder and bore.

I forgot to mention that I tried to involve my non trigger hand in supporting the butt much less this time also. I found that when I flinch a little, that left hand under the butt really makes the muzzle move a lot. So I tried to only support the butt for elevation and minimized the amount of grip I put on the toe.

[Daryl]

The dark side shows the land stress I would expect, but they all look good and reusable, which I personally do with 'recovered' patches.

[okawbow]

I actually think it was a good idea to cone the muzzle. A lot of in-accuracy is caused by the patches being damaged at the muzzle and the ball also being damaged by pounding through a tight muzzle. I coned the muzzle of my recently finished.50 cal. And the groups were basically the same, except I no longer got the occasional flier due to a cut patch. Also made the gun much easier to load.

I think you have it figured out. 

[Daryl]

Properly crowned as I call it, there is zero damage to patches, even with .0235" patches and a bore sized ball.
I use the mallet on the end of my right forearm to smack the short starter. One smack, in it goes.

[Darkhorse]

I'm glad your rifle is shooting better for you but honestly I don't see the kind of accuracy that would please me. So I wouldn't quit working on it yet.
Don't underestimate the power of a flinch to ruin a good group at 50 yards. There is a good chance you have at least a small flinch so I would keep working on doing away with it completely. When I first went to a flintlock I didn't think I had a flinch at all, couldn't see it from where I was. But my accuracy was terrible. I determined it was a flinch and really worked on curing it. It took awhile but I finally beat it and my accuracy woes were gone.
It wouldn't hurt to extend the slots in the barrel tabs. Certain conditions can really move the barrel and pins a surprising amount. I had been shooting one of my rifles a few years with no  problem, then the night before deer opener I discovered the front tab was broken from pin movement and the pin was bent. I had to do some emergency repair to fix it and also extended the slot farther. I don't think a barrel will shoot it's best with a bind.
The same goes for the fit of a barrel to the stock. I can't stand to feel movement between the bottom of the barrel and stock. If I squeeze the two together and feel any movement then I do a stress free bedding with acra gel to fit the two together better.
So far doing things this way has cured a lot of my accuracy problems..

[recurve]

1st shoot from a steady solid bench , (take the you out of your shooting)and a steady seat
2nd use a padded support under the sight area balance point,

3rd only change one small thing at a time ( lube, patch, ball size, grns of powder /type of powder )
make sure it's repeatable
don't move sights till you have a good load (make sure sights are not loose)







all groups 50 yrds from bench

[Kurt]

Having read all the postings I can say everything has been covered. I would keep increasing patch thickness until accuracy improves or you fear it can't be loaded. If patch thickness helps but seems unreasonable, I would then try .575 balls or bore reaming. I am fearful of fooling around with the bore as that is the most critical part of the barrel. I also feel timid about advising because everyone here knows what I know.

[Daryl]

.58 accuracy at 50yards, using .562" balls and 100gr. of 2F GOEX powder.
I used .022" denim patching. The rifle only had .008" deep rifling and was a SxS Kodiak rifle.
HighUintas, from your last target posts, it looks like you have it figured out quite well.

[reddogge]

You still may want to hook up with someone who can shoot flintlocks well just to give you another "eye" on it. I shoot with a friend who has trouble grouping but he admits his vision is not great and mine is very good after cataract surgery. We haven't had the time to shoot together so I can shoot his rifle but I think his vision is the problem, not the rifle.

[AZshot]

I've started shooting my new Kibler .40 SMR off a bench, 50 yds. It's getting there.  I think the lower shot was a cold, clean barrel.  I definately need a thicker patch, these were tore up when retrieved.

[Daryl]

In my honest opinion, if a patch is not reusable at least once more, it is not a strong enough or thick enough material.

[Bob Roller]

One thing I look for is the pattern on the muzzle after the first shot.If it's irregular a recrown happens then and there.I took a cordless drill with me to the range with an appropriate crowning ball which is a ball with file capabilities and then a polish using the crowning ball and 1200 grit polishing cloth.There SHOULD be a star pattern IF the crown is right
Bob Roller. 

[Daryl]

I agree Bob, but only when shooting grease groove bullets.