TVM(Matt Avance) Early Virgina Questions

[octagon]

Ok guys, I am ordering me up one of these this year and have some questions. I talked to Toni Avance today and we were talking about barrels and such. They offer them all. She asked me what I was mostly gonna use it for which is hunting deer in Pennsylvania. We talked about all of the barrels and I am down to Rice and DeHaas. All of the barrels are the same price with Rice having a 75.00 dollar upcharge. So, which do you reccomend and why? Also, I am getting a .54 with a 42 inch straight barrel and was considering a 1" ATF barrel and Toni said it would be un-Godly heavy and that I should go with the 15/16" ATF. I love very heavy guns, but what I don`t like is excessive nose heavy weight. I know you need some, but not crazy weight. Does anyone here have a 1" ATF 42 inch barrel in .54 and if so, what is the weight and nose weight like? Also, I am going with steel hardware, but I am not a big fan of browned barrels, so Toni reccommended the aged steel barrel and hardware look. She said it is a 2 tone and looks great. Does anyone have closeups of what that looks like? They don`t rust/pit it to do that, she said it is just a look and also a protectant.I am also going with the plain wood as I am going for a more military style look. Your thoughts please.

P.S. If this is in the wrong section, please move it to the right one

Regards-Jack

[C. Cash]

I got mine from Jack Garner(Tennesee Valley Manufacturing)..he split off from Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading.  Here are some of my general impressions. I'm about 6' and 41 years old,  not a powerful dude, but I'm not weak either.  
-A 42" 15/16 straight sided barrel in 54 Cal. is still pretty muzzle heavy.  It's acceptable and works, but not fast on target.  Offhand,  it "hangs" nice and for a flinter this a really good thing. For this reason alone, I am glad that I got  that the 42" 54 Cal combo.  But be prepared, it's going to be suprisingly heavy.  I think about 36-38" would be about ideal for this, but that shorter length just doesn't look quite right to me.
-Barrels...I like my Green Mountain.   It has good deep rifling and the gun is scary accurate.   I think the Green Mountain barrel is a good value for the money, and I think it is made of a bit harder steel(1137) than everything except the Rayl barrels.  Perhaps the  latter fact does not matter as black powder doesn't wear barrels like high pressure smokeless, but I  like the idea of a harder steel myself.   One thing I did right.    I got a piece of wood for the patch box that was from the same wood as the stock...nice match, per recommendation of my builder.  One thing I would have changed.  I would have asked for a harder piece of wood.  Mine is Red Maple(thought it would be Sugar Maple but didn't ask) and is a little soft and you have to watch overtightening the lockbolts.  When the firing system of the gun depends on the support of the stock wood, makes me feel better to have a very sturdy piece of wood.  Hope this helps!

[Daryl]

C.Cash - what does the rifle weigh?  I would think something in the 10 pound bracket would be about right for a .54.  I can't see a 1" in .54 being heavier than a 7/8" in 40 and that's about exactly what the .40 weighed. A lot, of course, depends on wood weight - ie: hardness. the Eastern wood can be a bit harder/heavier than the Western Maple.  Taylor is working on a full stocked Hawken right now in .62, on a 1" tapered bl. and it's pretty light.

[rich pierce]

Most all barrels available now shoot better than 95% of shooters can shoot.  They all shoot better than I can shoot with iron sights.  So barrel preference comes down to personal taste, bragging rights or resale points.  Makers like Rice and Colerain and Longhammock etc have standard sizes and profiles available.  Other small shops offer truly custom barrels- and will do lengths, profiles, bores, rifling that is non-standard for that "one-off" gun.  But makers of semi-custom guns (like TVM) normally work quickly and will work only with something in stock and thus off the shelf.  You won't go wrong with whatever TVM recommends or finds meets their quality standard for normal hunting and target shooting.

[Birddog6]

The VA I built one time weighed 9# and it had a 42" Swamped "C" weight barrel in .54 caliber.  According to my charts a Grn. Mtn 42" swamped C barrel weighs 4.1#. A  straight 15/16" x 42" in .54 cal  weighs 5.75#   , so you are pushing 10 3/4 to 11# on the same rifle if you go with the straight barrel.  Personally, I would go with a swamped barrel & you will still have plenty of muzzle weight. 

[roundball]

Ok guys, I am ordering me up one of these this year and have some questions.

I bought a Rice barrel for the .58cal Virginia that Matt recently finished for me.
It has a 38" D-weight swamped barrel, .58cal x .016" round bottom grooves, extremely accurate...I'll never in my life be able to shoot better than it's capable of...and I specified the aged steel finish.

The Virginia weighs 9.5lbs but the swamped barrel makes it so well balanced it's just a dream to carry and handle.

PHOTOS HERE:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8126.0

[C. Cash]

C.Cash - what does the rifle weigh?  I would think something in the 10 pound bracket would be about right for a .54.  I can't see a 1" in .54 being heavier than a 7/8" in 40 and that's about exactly what the .40 weighed. A lot, of course, depends on wood weight - ie: hardness. the Eastern wood can be a bit harder/heavier than the Western Maple.  Taylor is working on a full stocked Hawken right now in .62, on a 1" tapered bl. and it's pretty light.

Hi Daryl,

I don't know, but I will get a rough weight on in it and get back.

[octagon]

Good stuff fellas!! Roundball, that rifle is sweet I thought I saw somewhere on here another picture of that style barrel with a top view and it showed all of the 2-tone color. Toni Avance told me if I got the .54 with the 42" barre at 15/16" ATF it would weight about 9-9 1/2 pounds. I imagine with 1" ATF it would weigh over 10 which is fine by me, but I am just worried about it being too nose heavy. As for the swamped barrel, I don`t care for them and it is 200 dollars more. The stock will definitely be plain oiled maple with the 2-tone steel colored hardware with no patchbox. I agree that these guns just don`t look right with a shorter barrel. The only exception would be a Jaeger. Has anyone shot and handled a DeHaas barrel?

[roundball]

Dealing directly with Rice, a .58cal swamped barrel was around $200-ish with square grooves.  If you buy a barrel yourself for a TVM build, TVM credits their normal barrel allotment of about $80 out from the overall price of the rifle...so a square groove swamped Rice barrel would cost about $120 more.

(I went with the round bottom grooved barrel because the square grooves were out of stock when I called but they had the exact barrel I was looking for in a round bottom...it cost me an extra $25 bucks or so but I didn't want to waste any more time trying to locate a square groove and hold up the build schedule so I took it...and no regrets what-so-ever) 

[Birddog6]

 Taylor is working on a full stocked Hawken right now in .62, on a 1" tapered bl. and it's pretty light.

In comparison, a straight  42" barrel x 1" in .54 cal compared to a 1" Hawken barrel in .62 cal is like comparing a wiffle ball to a cannon ball.  Both round balls, but ALLOT of dif......  That .62 cal barrel has about 1# of weight bored  out of it, plus it is most likely much shorter & tapered, so it probably weighs a full 2# less than the 42" one..

The best thing to do is go to a place that has a stock like you want & lay Each barrel on it & feel it yourself.  Even if you have to drive a day & spend the night in a motel, that is worth it to acquire what you really want.  IMHO.

[J.D.]

 As for the swamped barrel, I don`t care for them and it is 200 dollars more.
 Has anyone shot and handled a DeHaas barrel?

I'm not trying to be combative, just curious if you have handled or shot a swamped barrel. I just can't imagine anyone not liking a swamped barrel.

As to Mark DeHass barrels, they are top quality. IMHO, as good as any, and better than some.

God bless

[roundball]

That was my experience...when I first got my 39" swamped barrel Virginia I was immediately taken by how light it felt, compared to my T/C Hawkens with straight 1" x 33" GM barrels.

Carefully weighing my self holding each different rifle, the Virginia weighs just over a half pound more than a Hawken at around 9.5 lbs...but I swear it feels 2-3 pounds lighter due to the balance...still hangs solid on a target.

Already knowing how nose heavy a 33" straight 1" GM barrel is, no way I'd want one a foot longer...and somebody mentioned size...I'm a strong 6'4" - 225 lb. man.

[hanshi]

My TVM EV is a .50 x 42" x 7/8" and weighs (digital bathroom scales) 8.5 pounds.  It is noticeably muzzle heavy but not the least bit awkward.  The weight up front makes it the easiest rifle to shoot offhand.  I also opted for the "aged steel" finish which does protect the metal at least as much as browning.  It also tends to darken slightly over time and is very attractive.  It is only about 1/2 pound heavier than my swamped barreled .40 but there's no comparison between the two as the weight of the .40 is shifted so far back due to the swamped barrel.  I'll add that the "aged" finish does give the rifle the appearance of an "in the white" that has darkened naturally.  I would not want a heavier barrel.  A "short" heavy barrel feels great but not a "long" heavy barrel.  Here (I hope) is a photo of the EV.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

My .54 weighs 7.5 lbs with a 44 inch Colerain swamped barrel.  Having two rifles with swamped barrels I will never buy another straight barrel. The balance is so much better!! And lighter!!  If your gun is an early VA, I would think it would call for a swamped barrel as straight barrels didn't come into common use until some time around or after 1800.

[J.D.]

Another alternative might be a tapered barrel. Tapered barrels feel lighter and have better balance than straight barrels. The price is less than a swamped barrel too.

Just kinda thinkin'...typin' out loud, so to speak...type.

God bless

[Long Ears]

I built the exact rifle you are wanting. It was a TVM kit. Toni luckily gave me the same advice on the 1" straight barrel so I went with the 7/8 straight. Mine is also a Green Mountain barrel and shoots lights out. The darn thin is still to heavy for a full day of offhand target shooting. I sure wouldn't want to pack it all day in the Rockies. It is a bit muzzle heavy also. I am thinking about donating it to a gun club and building the same style in a swamped Rice .54. Mine weighs 8lbs. 4oz on bathroom scales. I am 6'1" 280lbs and getting a little long in the tooth not near as tough as I used to be. Good Luck, Bob

[octagon]

I built the exact rifle you are wanting. It was a TVM kit. Toni luckily gave me the same advice on the 1" straight barrel so I went with the 7/8 straight. Mine is also a Green Mountain barrel and shoots lights out. The darn thin is still to heavy for a full day of offhand target shooting. I sure wouldn't want to pack it all day in the Rockies. It is a bit muzzle heavy also. I am thinking about donating it to a gun club and building the same style in a swamped Rice .54. Mine weighs 8lbs. 4oz on bathroom scales. I am 6'1" 280lbs and getting a little long in the tooth not near as tough as I used to be. Good Luck, Bob

I apprrciate that Bob Is 7/8" wider than 15/16" ?

Thanks-Jack

[roundball]

7/8"  =  14/16"

[Long Ears]

 Sorry,my bad I went with the 15/16" across the flats not the 1". They did not offer the 7/8" in .54 at that time. Bob

[octagon]

Thanks guys. I still don`t think TVM offer 7/8" ATF, at least not in their current magazine. Bob, when you ordered yours, did TVM tell you they were having trouble getting a GM barrel? They told me they were because GM took on a very large military contract.

Jack

[Long Ears]

I ordered mine about a year and a half ago and there was no problem. I have heard that story about the contract lately however.

[octagon]

I don`t even know if GM offers round botton rifling? I know Rice does, not sure about DeHass?

[B Shipman]

It really does depend on what you personally like. I've had customers that preferred straight muzzle heavy barrels and price had nothing to do with it. Others that wanted the lightest possible swamped barrel.  You can also consider shortening the 1 in. ATF to say 39 in.

[roundball]

I don`t even know if GM offers round botton rifling? I know Rice does, not sure about DeHass?

Just so it's clear, I wasn't lobbying for round bottom grooves...is just that it happened to already be made up laying on a shelf in the configuration I needed...38" D-weight, swamped, .58cal, etc...and they were out of what I needed in square groove.

I will say that I've noticed the following differences compared to the .58cal GM square bottom barrel I had:

1) The .016" round bottom groove Rice barrel seems to wipe completely clean with a single cleaning patch:
2) The deeper rounded groove design makes the bore feel noticably larger;
3) The same .570" x .018" pillow ticking PRB which was a tight fit in my .58cal GM square groove slides down / seats noticably easier in the round bottom grooves;
4) Sighted it in for deer season with Oxyoke .022" precut/prelubed patches;
5) Seems the bore was polished / finished better than any T/C or GM barrel I've had;
6) Far greater accuracy capability than I'll ever have;

So what started out as an "OK, I'll try that one" kind of a purchase, given all the above I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[roundball]

By the way, since I haven't embarrassed myself yet today, I keep meaning to ask...what is meant by the letters ATF in references to barrels in this thread?


( I'm assuming it's not Alcohol, Tobbaco, & Fax  or  All Terrain Flintlocks )