Sixteen-bore. Options

[WadePatton]

Hey y'all, been "out of the workshop" for some time now, but am ready to get some more parts for a future build.

I need a smoothie, and I like a trade gun, but I'd really like one in 16 rather than the ubiquitous 20 (or smaller). Were there any trade guns made in 16? Or should I select a different sort of gun in order for the bore to be appropriate? Thanks for some nudges and notions. I'm not stuck in a time-frame, but don't want to build another "oddball".  I'm sure I could make do and get by with a 62, but kinda prefer 66.  Thanks

[Dave Marsh]

Kibler Fowler in 16 gauge would be a good choice.

[rich pierce]

An officer’s fusil would be close to that. Any number of fowlers. English like the Kibler, or many of the colonial American fowlers would be fine with a 16 gauge. New England, club butt, British style, even a Hudson Valley fowler. Do you have Grinslade’s book 📖 n colonial fowlers? Lots of inspiration in it, and it’s not expensive.

[smylee grouch]

The Museum of the Fur Trade in Chardon NB had at one time a very large collection of Trade Guns and Jim Gordon's Museum in Gloreta NM as well. Many different makers and styles. I don't know if they can furnish the info you seek though.

[canadianml1]

Just finished assembling a 16 ga Kibler in walnut. It went together like a Leggo set!! The photos on his web page do not do it justice. It is a beautiful gun. Very happy with it!

[WadePatton]

I'm not looking for a kit, nothing against Jim's stuff. If I was in a hurry--sure. Well I have looked at Clay Smith's stuff, but of course it's all 20 or 24 x 47" the end, no discussion. And of course it's his production and that's fine.

I was thinking NWT after spending a weekend in close proximity to a nifty one in 20.  Does 16 fit into that scheme of guns? I want to commission a bbl, but don't want everyone rolling their eyes at my smoothie because I didn't adhere to historic precedent closely enough. I get enough of that with a 54 TN. 

Yes I need to do more research before I collect my parts. Just figured there's a great deal of wisdom floating around here waiting to be tapped. I do have a full dozen tabs open now with search results from only this site. 

I suppose I should have asked: Would it be proper to utilize a 16 in something as late as a NWT gun? Or am I overthinking it?

[rich pierce]

I think it’s possible to overthink things. Haha see what I did there?  The smaller bores were desirable to save on lead and folks at trading posts could buy or trade for balls that fit the standard bores. So, if strict, a 16 ga doesn’t make historical sense on a NWTG (most are thinking of a 1820-1850 gun when they think NWTG).

I’ve got a 14 gauge (.690) and it packs a wallop with round ball or shot. The barrel is for a 1728 French fusil ordinaire Rifle Shoppe kit. I don’t shoot round ball with it much. It’s too easy to go through 5 pounds of lead.

[Daryl]

Wade, I had a 12 bore NW trade gun by Gostomski. Even with a light charge of 85gr. is was a kicker.
I would think a 16 would be much nicer to shoot, especially if it weighed more than 5 1/2 pounds.

[bigsmoke]

I also have a NW Trade gun in 12 ga.
Being a big bore aficionado, the 20 ga trade guns rather bore me, but the 12 is sweet.
And it's not like everyone else's, which also makes it appealing to me.
That being said, I also really like my Sweet Elsie (LC Smith) in 16 ga.  It's a true joy to shoot, except it just doesn't smell right when it goes off.  I know, I'm not supposed to mention these new fangled guns, but it is slightly over a hundred years old and tight as the day it was made, so please forgive me, but...
John (Bigsmoke)

[Pukka Bundook]

The Griffin is a lovely light 16 bore barrel Wade.
It's you going to be shooting it, so who cares what anyone else thinks? None of their business.

Make what you like and enjoy it!
Look forward to seeing it when you get it made.

Best,
Rich.

[Longknife]

I traded for a 12 bore NWTG at Fort De Chartres many years ago and shot it in many matches down there. Never had anyone complain!!!

[Eric Laird]

I don't have my copy available - loaned it out - but I'm pretty sure "For Trade and Treaty" by Gale has several NWTG-style guns exceeding the nominal 20ga/.62 cal. If I remember correctly, one might have been as large as 12ga, but with my memory....

Eric

[Levy]

Wade,  I bought a nice oct/rnd 16 ga. barrel from Rice 3 years ago that was made from 4140 and was light and I think it was only 41" in length.  It was already jug-choked, but I presume you could get one without the choke.
James Levy

[Denny]

Wade,

I have hunted and shot competitively with a NWTG since the early 1980s. As was the case in the 18th and 19th centuries, this style of smoothbore is easy to build, is very versatile regarding loads and a hoot to shoot. A NWTG is the Model T of muzzleloaders. And if you've read any of my scribblings, you already know that "Old Turkey Feathers" is my go to firelock regardless of wild game or shooting game.

The bore diameter of existing original NWTGs varies by time period, by maker and by contract. My chart from Dixie Gun Works shows the standard English bore for a 16 ga to be .662.

So looking at Firearms of the Fur Trade by James A. Hanson & Dick Harmon, Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade, Vol. 1, Museum of the Fur Trade, Chadron NE, 2011 you will find:

Robert Wilson NWTG: 1751, 42-inch barrel bored .65 (page 146 & 147);
Robert Wilson: 1760 to 1770 era, 48-inch barrel bored .68 (154 & 155);
Benjamin Willets: Chief's grade, 1760 to 1770 era, 48-inch barrel bored .66 (182 & 183);
Thomas Barnett: 1820, 42-inch barrel bored .66 (178 & 179);
Thomas Barnett: 1805, 48-inch barrel bored .64 (170 & 171);
Robert Barnett: 1792, 34-inch cut down barrel bored .64 (168 & 169);
John Sharpe: 1818, 36-inch barrel bored .65 (174 & 175);
Richard Wilson: Chief's grade, 1750 - 1760, 44 1/2-inch barrel bored .70, John Kinzie, Chicago trader (181 & 182);
Henry Morris: Chief's grade, (attributed 1802 to 1813), 48-inch barrel bored .69, (186 & 187).

There are other research sources, but Hanson's Firearms of the Fur Trade gives a good cross section of bores, barrel length, makers and dates. There are also guns shown in the .60 to .62 range, but that is not what you want.

My advice is pick a time period, maker and either use an available barrel or have one made in 16 ga/.662. I doubt Thomas Barnett, Robert Barnett or John Sharpe would notice a thousandth or two variation in the bore diameter.

And regarding recoil, the versatility of a smoothbore allows for matching the tolerated recoil with the powder charge, ball or shot. A respectful and humane load is required for any game, and range time will determine what that load is.

As an aside, I have shot in competition with as little as 35 grains of 3Fg (.610, 344 gr. bare round ball with leaf wadding) and loaded Old Turkey Feathers (originally bored .620 and now mics .629 after 40-plus years of shooting) with balls ranging from .530 to .610 and shot from #9 to 00 buck. All of which knocked down steel clangers at 75-plus yards, busted clays or downed fowl or fur. As I have written for years, you can't beat a Northwest trade gun for versatility and FUN! Build the NWTG you want and you will not be sorry!

Be safe and may God bless you,
Dennis "Denny" Neely

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the replies fella. That info will help guide me to my next question or two. But I think I'm good for a while, I got distracted thinking of -all- the various smoothies I might favor.  I need to settle that issue, at least pick a first. Sixteen appears to be quite legit in most all of them.