Wood questions

[Ezra]

I have a couple of wood related questions.

1.) Are American walnut and English walnut similar (generally speaking) to carve?  That is, do they share similar characteristics?

2.)  When shopping for a stock blank for a rifle project, what is a good measure of how long of a blank you need?  Is the LOP + barrel length a reasonable measure?  Or should I be adding in more length for  I would think if you were going to build an Eastern Tennessee style rifle for example, you might add a few extra inches because of the crescent style buttplate?

Input appreciated.  


Ez

[E.vonAschwege]

   I much prefer to carve English/European wanut to Black walnut.  In general, English walnut is more dense, tighter grain, pores aren't as open, and carves nicer.  Black walnut in my experience, generally splinters a little more if your tools aren't their sharpest.  Of course, you occasionally can find lousy Englsh walnut, or really good dense Black walnut, so each piece is different. 
   I don't have any system for length... Just been lucky so far!  I figure LOP + Barrel + 1" (in between trigger and breech), and then I add a few more to be safe. 
-Eric

[Acer Saccharum]

In general terms, English is great for carving; American walnut can be great or too soft, depending on the piece. When shopping for American, I'd definitely go and look at it in person. Try to press your thumbnail into it, a simple 'hardness test', if you will.

if you can't get to the wood reasonably, you may rely on Dunlap, Harrison or Tiger Hunt to supply the necessary piece in the hardness you request. These folks are good reliable suppliers.

I would add a few inches over the barrel length and at least two on the LOP to allow some positioning forward and back of the breech.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jinx, I owe you a coke von Aschwege, or however you spell it.

[James Rogers]

A newbie agrees. I worked my first piece of English last year and compared to the best black the English works like a dream.

[Dave B]

Ezra,
You can't be too careful when it comes to giving your self room.  I built a Bucks co rifle  that had a 51.5 inch barrel. The trigger pull was 13 3/4  I thought I had judged the length out with the toe extentsion and had Freddy send me a longer than average piece of wood. I still ended up adding an inch of wood to the forestock (covered by the muzzle cap) to get the final amount needed to make the stock work.

[northmn]

I am cutting into 2 pieces of American walnut and find them to be somewhat soft but usable, more like a less desirable grade of maple.  Still with sharp tools and care they can be worked.  They do tend to chip out in inlays if care is not taken to properly cut the borders. I used birch (I cut the blank out of a tree myself) and it worked OK.  As to stock length, were you to make an unusual rifle with an unusually long barrel you could run into problems, but most blanks are cut to handle a 44" inch barrel or so and a reasonable pull of under 15".  If you build a rifle with a curved butt the pull is measures to the bottom of the curve and layout has to accommodate the extremes.  Layout on a blank depends on LOP and drop as well.  You would be surprised how far forward you can layout a pattern on a blank.  I like to stay away from the ends to some extent to avoid possible checking from drying.  Nothing wrong with making a pattern for an atypical project using extra long barrels or long wide buttplates as sometimes a 5" deep buttplate 2" wide can cause a few problems also.

DP

[smart dog]

Hi Ezra,
If I can afford it, can find it, and it is the appropriate wood for a gun, I always choose English walnut over black walnut. Of course you can get soft EW and very hard BW but in general English walnut is harder and denser.  It carves better and it is easier and faster to finish because the grain fills more quickly. Give yourself plenty of extra length and width on a stock blank so you have options with respect to where the stock will be positioned on the blank to take advantage of the grain. If buying wood sight unseen, I total LOP and barrel length and then add 18-24 inches if I can. I will always use the extra wood.

dave

[Pete G.]

You mention an East Tennessee style rifle. If that is what you are building then English walnut and carving are not really appropriate. Most of them used American walnut and were completely unadorned. Of course since it is your rifle, you can build whatever pleases you, but the culture of the Appalachian area was very disdainful of "frew-frew and gee-gaws".

(spell check just about choked on those two expressions)

[jwh1947]

Guys, to us PA muzzleloader types, there are only two kinds of wood...Maple and firewood. 

In truth, I have a beautiful piece of Bastogne hybrid Walnut here that will soon be on a presentation M1.   Interesting thread. Wayne

[Jerry V Lape]

Walnut is more complex than just English or Black.  Claro and Bastogne, both of which come in about a thousand varieties of hybrids, are also included.  English, Circassian, Turkish, and French are supposed to be the same but they aren't.  Bastogne is generally the densest of them.  Claro is English grown in California I believe but probably hybridized.  The high grade shotgun boys argue over these varieties endlessly.  I think you have to buy walnut in person and make your own judgements.

[The other DWS]

a lot depends on what you are intending to make--and why.

  when I was recreating French F&I era trade guns I examined a number of originals, (most of'em converted/cut down etc) in small-town Ontario local museums.  French 18th cent. walnut stocked of course and usually straight grained utilitarian wood rather than fancy stuff.
  I talked with a couple of knowledgeable wood guys and we concluded that the pore/grain structure of most Am black walnut would look wrong for our reenactment group--too big and wide grained.  Mature french walnut from that time had grown up in a considerably different climate.
 We settled on American wild black (choke) cherry.  Fortunately we have a lot of it here in southern MI and a local custom sawyer had a bunch of thick seasoned wood available for out blanks.  The wood is a bit lighter weight wise than the original 18th cent French and the color is off; but the grain and pore structure were VERY similar and when properly stained and finished they looked very much like the original examples

[ronward]

i would think for the sake of this question that although walnut is more complicated than just english or american black, these two subspecies would be the main focus, especially when the question is dierected towards gunstock wood. it would either be wood from the locale or wood imported from england, not to say that that's the only place "english" walnut can come from today, but the most likely at that time.
    english is definately better in terms of the requirements for carving and intricate shaping, as stated, it is denser and it's fibers are more closely intertwined, which makes it stay together better under the gouge or knife. i have af air amount of experience with american black in the furniture and clocks i build and i have not seen anywhere near the shapeability of it compared to the few pieces of english i've had. it is generally more brittle and will flake off in small seperated segments as you cut a radius, where english will more generally release a segmented curl as the gouge is advanced.
   now, allot of that may be the result of how it was kined and cured. the large majority of today's black will most likey be kilned for furniture building and production stock making where machinery will actually do a better/cleaner job of shaping, while english is almost exclusively cured with gun stocks in mind. in the time that is of intrest in this thread, both were more commonly used in stockmaking(i would think) ans there would be allot more present that was cured with that in mind. kilning any wood will produce a more brittle product and when you through today's "bottom line" economics into the mix ,allot of very good lumber ends up one step above good expensive firewood.

[Acer Saccharum]

Looking back on this thread, if you are attempting to build an historically accurate rifle, you would likely use maple or ash for an Eastern Tennessee rifle. Maybe Black Walnut, but not English walnut.

Tom

[Artificer]

Gents,

Glad I read this thread.  I've got some Black Walnut planks in the basement that have been air drying for between 50 and 75 years.  I tried the thumb nail test mentioned and can't get an impression or scratch.  This wood came from my Grandfather who bought plank wood for use in furniture making.   (I barely remember when he bought the second load after he was down to less than half the first load.)  There is no sap wood in it.   I had planned on using this instead of English Walnut, but now I'm not so sure.

A few years ago, my brother in law took some of the thinner stock to make a hanging shelf.  He said there had a been a problem with twisting after he planed it out.

I turned a few pieces of it about 20 years ago for powder horns and though I'm no woodturner, it seemed to turned smoothly without chunks coming out.  

Since I had planned on using it for Mid 18th Century guns, maybe I should use that wood for something else and get English Walnut for the gun stocks?

Gus Fisher

[Acer Saccharum]

Gus, if the wood twists, or bends, you can heat it to straighten it. I would not hesitate to use it. Few PA rifles were walnut, it was more commonly used in New England for fowlers. Walnut is seen commonly for guns mid 19th Cent and on.

Tom

[The other DWS]

question here:    Is there any reliable documentation for the importation of English or other European walnut for gunstocking purposes in the "longrifle era" ?  

N America was covered with an unbelievable amount of prime forest.   'twas said that a squirrel could travel from the Atlantic coast to the Mississippi without ever touching the ground.   there is plenty of documentation for NAmerican wood being shipped to Europe--not sure about gunstock/furniture grade stuff except for some of the Caribbean tropical hardwoods.  the colonial era furniture makers of course imported some tropical hardwoods but they were for more decorative/status works and not physically or economically suitable for long arms-----maybe some teaks/ebonies/rosewoods were used for pistols

stocked European arms brought in would obviously have European woods; but I'd hazard a fair bet that well over 90% of NAmerican stocked arms wood have used NAmerican native species of wood,  including Eastern "black" walnut.

If I were building an American arm that called for walnut I'd have no qualms about using high grade black walnut as long as it was well but not overseasoned.  I'd not use it if I were recreating a arm of Europen mfg.

[Stophel]

question here:    Is there any reliable documentation for the importation of English or other European walnut for gunstocking purposes in the "longrifle era" ?  

I think this is a fairy tale made up by collectors who would dearly wish for their 18th century European gun to have been made in America.

There was barely enough walnut wood for the Europeans to use themselves, why would they send any of it here?  The Land of (formerly) Endless Forests?

[Acer Saccharum]

Chris, where have you been all my life?

There was barely enough walnut wood for the Europeans to use themselves, why would they send any of it here?

Brilliant.

So many early pieces from Europe are difficult to differentiate from the early American made piece made by recently arrived Europeans. The wood is a clue.

However, much wood did leave this country as cargo and quite possibly end up as guns in Europe. The Steinschloss book has quite a few jaegers stocked in maple.

[Stophel]

I personally doubt the maple came from here.  There are different varieties that grow in Europe.  The Spanish seemed fond of it, I think because walnut in Spain tends to be very coarse.  The Dutch used maple a bit too.  I have a book about the Army of Frederick the Great, which states that the gunsmiths making muskets preferred walnut, but it was often unavailable, and they had to settle for beech or "Silesian Maple".  (Best I can tell, this is probably "Sycamore Maple", which is considered only slightly softer than sugar maple, and is often quite curly.)

The idea of American wood going to Europe is floated about now and then, but I don't know that there is any real documentation of it happening, other than England taking tall trees for shipbuilding.  

[Ezra]

Thanks for all the input guys.  Haven't been able to respond recently because I was on travel in New Mexico.  Anyway, you all can rest assured, that I do indeed know that East Tennessee style rifles were NOT made of English Walnut.    The English Walnut carving question had to do with an English Walnut blank I am in the process of purchasing and the relative ease of carving of it to a wood I am more familiar with (Black Walnut).  That blank is for a way, way future project.  A Jaeger I have in mind.  Truth be told, it is beyond my ability at this point.  The overall blank measurments were just to give me a warm fuzzy cause I have some loonnggg barrels on order and don't want to make a mistake by getting too little wood for them.  One is probably going to be a Bean style squirrel gun and the other a Gillespie.


Ez

[Artificer]

Tom,

Thank you, I feel a lot better about using Grandpa's wood now.  He helped me cast my first ML rifle balls and make my first powderhorn.  Not all the pieces are quite long enough for a longrifle and I think there is going to be two Garand Stock Sets that come out of it for his Great, Great Grandsons.  However, I had always hoped to get at least one long rifle stock out of the wood. 

The Other DWS,

I'm not a sawyer and I've never heard of wood that was overseasoned.  Would you mind explaining that?

Thanks so much to both of you.

Gus Fisher

[northmn]

Consider the rifle.  If you are making an imported weapon like a French fusil, NWT's,  English sporting rifle or other imports, it will be made with local woods from Europe.  A lot of Tennessee rifle were built out of local walnut according to my book by Irwin.  Were I to now build a Tennessee rifle after what I have learned through recent study it would be walnut although maple is also fine.  In the early days walnut was used for military rifles and tobacco sheds.  Curly maple was a gunstock wood.  Maple has an interesting characteristic in that it does not rot as quickly as other wood if exposed to oils and greases and has been used for machinery bearings.  But again I would look at the weapon, as the wood was likely almost always cut locally.  American walnut is not exactly junk and makes a nice looking rifle, especially if figured.
Overseasoned? Wood will only dry to about 8% give or take.  At that level it can become brittle although not so much for a stock.  However to get to 8% usually requires a kiln or possibly air drying the the Southwest. Track of the Wolf advertised that their blanks were dried to about 8% for stability.  Wood also has a tendency to pick up outside humidity.  I have placed blanks in my hotboxes on occasion to alleviate this.  There is a certain amount of old wives tales floating around about wood drying that science has refuted.  Overseasoning may be confused with certain rotting issues.  Wood in your basement may not be all that dry no matter how old it is.  The old timers used to store it in attics.  Air dried wood tends to limit itself to about 14%.

DP  

[Artificer]

Northmn,

After reading your last post, a couple questions came to miind.

Was walnut the prefered wood for military gun stocks, in both Great Britain and the U.S.,  from the early 18th century onward as they didn't have much maple in Europe?  I know the British allowed Birch to be used for a very short time on Brown Besses when they had to get so many guns made so quickly before the Napoleonic Wars, but it seems they sold off those guns right afterward and went back strictly to walnut. 

We had plenty of maple around in the U.S. at the very end of the 18th century when the real Springfield Arsenal was set up, but walnut was the prefered choice of wood.  Was this because maple was too expensive?

Gus Fisher

[Pete G.]

Most military weapons that I have seen were pretty much straight grained walnut; probably for the dual reasons of durabuility and cost. Less figured wood, while not necessarily stronger, can certainly take more abuse, and as always, economics run the world.