Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[Jim Kibler]

The reason businesses don't always continue is because they're typically not financially viable.  If there is enough money to be made someone will continue.  They are more of a hobby than a proper business.  This is the case with many small suppliers to the muzzleloading industry.  In fact, I would guess there are very few businesses in this sector that would pass typical tests for profitability and sustainability.

[whetrock]

Jim is exactly right.

[recurve]

"
" my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components"  smart dog  said

that is what I have found(not finding the amount of good parts and suppliers) fewer every year and the go to shops just do not have/stock  the components needed to the finish a build
the only hope is going to  the builder fairs and hope they still make it /sell it or make it yourself   

[whetrock]

... or make it yourself

Make it yourself, or pay a craftsman enough to make custom parts on a bespoke order.

[Hawg]

I couldn't build a Traditions kit to save my life nor would I want to. I had a Hawken scratch built for me but I couldn't afford to have it done now. Jim's kits are so easy to build that anybody can build one. That lets people like me have a quality long rifle at an affordable price. I doubt they're going to cut into the number of custom builders.

[PEARL DRUMS]

New guy here. I put together a rifle from Jim and love it. What it did for me was light a fire inside thats driving me to build one. And, I have a perfectly built Kibler rifle to set the bar. Im currently collecting tools and studying. In my case the kit gun built a future builder. Win win as they say.

[snapper]

I have a friend that is a very successful businessman.  He often says that there is a difference between buying a business as an investment vs buying a business for a job.

Fleener

[wolf]

I retired 6 years ago. I was a professional; transmission rebuilder for near 45 years and shop owner since 1987, it was the same, sort of thing in my world. I would give a price but, on the internet, they could buy a rebuilt transmission with a better warranty an pay less than I had to get to make a living! you have to change with times, or you will get left behind. I have built/done 19 of Jims guns,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[reddogge]

About 1980 I had a friend who tried to build his wife a flintlock rifle and chiseled the buttplate to the highly figured curly maple blank the very first thing and did a very bad job of it. He got mad and sold me the blank and buttplate for $5. I got the idea to build my 11 yo son a rifle since I had to cut off his handy work and it would leave a stock with a shorter pull. Another friend, gunmaker, stock supplier, sold me a .45 barrel with a flaw in the rifling 6" down from the muzzle for cheap. I found some other parts, made some other parts including a patch box and learned to engrave it. Without some building skills under my belt that rifle never would have existed. But it spends its whole life hanging from the wall of his house now. My building skills were whetted by two kits I had put together in the late 70s.

 

[Steeltrap]

The reason businesses don't always continue is because they're typically not financially viable.  If there is enough money to be made someone will continue.  They are more of a hobby than a proper business.  This is the case with many small suppliers to the muzzleloading industry.  In fact, I would guess there are very few businesses in this sector that would pass typical tests for profitability and sustainability.

This is spot on. Even those entities that have IRS designation as "non-profit" have to make a profit in order to continue their missions. Non-Profit really means non-taxable....but even some non-profits pay income taxes. But that's another matter.

Anyone with an idea that meets a demand from the public, and can provide a quality product at a reasonable price will usually  succeed. But, as Jim stated, two very important words....Profitability and Sustainability.

Profit is not a dirty word.

[t.caster]

I think there has been a decline in custom built guns due to the "stupid" economy the last few years. Custom guns can't be built as cheaply as kits. Not to say the current kits are cheap, because the quality of parts are excellent! I think & hope when the economy improves, loosening the flow of funds, that demand for custom built muzzleloaders will improve. I have managed to stay busy building one order after another, but have no real backlog. I keep a variety of wood, barrels, locks, triggers, etc., on hand so I'm always working on something I still enjoy doing after 45 years or so.

[CooleyS]

I didn’t begin this journey until I was almost 50…life had a few knuckle balls to throw at me first! My first build was a Chambers smooth rifle I built along side my dad who made a lefty Chambers fowler. Even though my dad has built amazing muzzleloaders since he was a young man, I was still terrified by the thought of making something from all those pieces and parts. He was an amazing teacher and I was hooked. Then I bought a Kibler southern rifle to have a better feel for nuances of stock shaping, etc. These two kits, although very different in skills required to complete, were the gateway for me to make several plank builds now. I enjoy not being limited by pre-inlet pre-shaped styles and any mistakes made are mine to own!
-Steve

[Born200years2late]

Yeah, I really don’t think we’re losing scratch makers to kits. Kits have been around forever- If anything I’m seeing more interest from younger folks than I was 10 years ago now that *some* authentic rifles are reaching affordability with things like the Kibler kits being produced. The more younger folks able to jump into the hobby with more accessible but authentic guns, the more they’ll get invested in the hobby and the more the hobby will grow.

[Daryl]

I think there has been a decline in custom built guns due to the "stupid" economy the last few years. Custom guns can't be built as cheaply as kits. Not to say the current kits are cheap, because the quality of parts are excellent! I think & hope when the economy improves, loosening the flow of funds, that demand for custom built muzzleloaders will improve. I have managed to stay busy building one order after another, but have no real backlog. I keep a variety of wood, barrels, locks, triggers, etc., on hand so I'm always working on something I still enjoy doing after 45 years or so.

The economy Tom, as well as the "aging" of some of the builders who seemed active just a few years ago.

[Jacob_S_P]

Some GREAT points and observations in this post. I would add this, I am in the firearms industry on a larger scale and that has been my career for sometime. Overall at this moment - the industry is in a steep decline. Politics AND the economy play two major roles. Couple that with oversaturation and disaster occurs for many companies.
All industries or businesses ebb and flow. For the longrifle / muzzleloading sector I see good things coming. For several reasons.
Jim Kibler has created a gateway drug. His higher end kits allow people to get a taste and and draw in a totally new crowd because now they can get a taste of high grade product and get pulled into the lifestyle. As many have stated, these kits got them in and now they want to scratch build. Perfect!
I am newer to the longrifle scene and get reminded that at 49 - I'm still a youngster compared to so many of the crowd. Well - better news is this - there are even younger people coming in behind me and we are bringing in sons and friends.... plus this mid aged crowd has more fluid income to spend on this stuff. From tools to components- to kits and classes..
I see and have seen for years, the greater dip in firearms means the fringe / sub categories grow.
An uptick in economy with a new president and a downturn in modern firearms- because of a new president - means people will put their money into interests and not perceived need.
I see good things coming - I got a distant relative signed up for a class in Southern OH and two.boys signed up for a tomahawk forging class in NC..... each of us needs to work to grow it.

[utseabee]

      I don't see the good builders losing any business because of the kits. Look at the waiting lists to have a custom rifle built by one of the better builders. In my opinion, the kits are bringing more people into the game. I work with several younger people who were only into AR's and things like that. I left them shoot my flintlocks once and they now own and hunt with Kibler's kits. Without those quality kits, I feel that these guys would given up already had they been forced to use the store-bought rifles. Overall, I think the kits are a really good thing for flintlock shooting.
Just my 2 cents.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

In truth, before a builder even obtains a piece of wood, a gun is 95% complete.  Almost all of the work is in the metal - barrel, lock, screws, hardware.  So, from this point of view, almost all guns we see today are built from a kit.  I have a rifle that is nearly complete, and now to get a piece of wood.

Happy New Year to all,
Jim

[PEARL DRUMS]

The various view points  throughout this thread are very layered. Just like every other hands on hobby. How much money do you have? How much time do you have? How much space do you have? I think many people who build plank rifles with purchased barrels and locks could also build barrels and locks with the appropriate money, time and space.

[Bill Raby]

I built a lock from scratch once. Now the price of a new lock seems very low.

[Jim Kibler]

Guys,

In truth, before a builder even obtains a piece of wood, a gun is 95% complete.  Almost all of the work is in the metal - barrel, lock, screws, hardware.  So, from this point of view, almost all guns we see today are built from a kit.  I have a rifle that is nearly complete, and now to get a piece of wood.

Happy New Year to all,
Jim

But the idea that gunsmiths made all metal components themselves is antiquated.  Locks and barrels were very often purchased.  They could of course purchase cheaper than they could make themselves even if they had the ability.

[JTR]

If you're an old geezer guy with a bucket or two full of money, or a not so old guy with the same buckets, then sure, have one of the big name guys build you a rifle. Then put it in the safe and only pull it out on special occasions. Don't even consider shooting it.

If you're a more common guy, and want a really good looking rifle, that you'll actually shoot or take hunting, I'd buy a one of the fine looking Kibler kits, have someone put it together and add some hand carving of my liking to it. Then I'd enjoy it, shoot the heck out of it, and at the end of the day, hang it back on the wall to admire.

And it shouldn't cost more than a third of a bucket. 

And from pictures, there's already guys here doing that work.

John

[Bill Raby]

If I spend a couple buckets of money on a gun I am going to get my moneys worth out of it. The more a gun costs, the more I am going to shoot it.

[BOB HILL]

The kits are not going to have much effect on our better makers. In my opinion. Jim  Chamber’s fine kits didn’t hurt their busines.
Bob

[oldtravler61]

  I build guns for myself and family. Only time I buy anything contemporary is if I can resale it for a profit. I use every gun I've ever built or owned.
The exception to this is if they are made from a friend. Then they are a cherished possession..

[Bob Gerard]

A follow up question could be, “Does running a Rifle Kit Company deter a Master builder from making a gun from scratch?” 🫣