Are we loosing our builders to Kit rifles

[Eric Kettenburg]

There are very few guys still working that can claim to have never started out with a kit.  Guys like Earl Lanning or Wallace, who had to start out without a kit because there were no kits.

Many of the kits of the 70s and 80s were frustrating enough to actually ENCOURAGE scratch building as being easier (imho, anyway).  Early on, I think the Pedersoli Bess and Charleville kits were the hottest ticket because they also tended to coincide with the bicentennial, at which point a to of people really jumped into blackpowder.  Centermark got really big in the 80s sometime and into the early 1990s, and they weren't too terribly frustrating.

Jim said, "Did the kit's cause this decline or had the decline already started and the kits came along and filled a void?   To be honest, I'm not certain and I don't think anybody can be."

Well, I feel pretty certain.  I don't think the kits have anything whatsoever to do with the decline.  It's lack of interest amongst modern youth in conjunction with a declining pool of interested buyers to pay someone a living wage to build from scratch in conjunction with lack of desire amongst potential builders to work at something that is extremely difficult to make a family-supporting wage.

Look at what's been happening in the antique market (KRA as example), which has for many years been somewhat intertwined with the higher-dollar contemporary market.  I see a number of guns going at auction now as the old collectors die off (sorry to be blunt) that are going for well less than half of what they may have commanded 10-20 years ago.  It's the same with many higher-end contemporaries, because the buying pool has by and large been the same for many years and it's shrinking faster than it's being replenished due to the natural lifespan of human beings.

Time marches on and popular interests change.  Younger people getting into gun construction aren't looking to construct flintlocks, they're all hot to build and play with guns I obviously can't discuss here.

[reddogge]

I started with two kits in the mid to late 70s, a Thompson Center Hawken and an Ithaca Hawken. I wanted to get into flintlocks so my next project was a Southern Mtn. rifle from a blank in the early 80s. While not a perfect rifle it has won me countless matches, food, and liquor. That is satisfying. I've since built about 10 rifles and smoothbores, the last two years ago with parts I had lying around since the 90s. I just liked to build them from blanks, the whole process from building to finishing to shooting.

[cliffh]

Wow, I had no idea that this was such a polarizing issue.  I can say that I have assembled and finished 5 kits and have one in progress.  I wouldn't have any black powder guns otherwise unfortunately.   I enjoy assembling and finishing ... as well as shooting.  If I was younger, I might try "building" a rifle, but, as a gentleman earlier said, I am 3 days older than dirt.

I would say that I am sorry if my kit building offends some folks, but I'm not.  I do what I enjoy doing.  The finished product of some of these kits is beautiful and I really enjoy them. 

I can appreciate the effort of the real "builds" and my hat is off to you, however, please don't rain on my tiny parade

[Tommy Bruce]

I'm still working full time (hopefully that is going to change at the end of the school year).  I've build a couple of from a blank but most from kits.  Looking back I regret not spending more time building from a blank but chasing kids to sporting events, coaching and other responsibilities always seemed to get in the way. 

The high quality of kits today are not only cost efficient but also a time efficient way of being able to hunt/shoot/reenact with a quality period correct firearm.  Also starting from a pre-carved was a less intimidating way of getting into building from a blank.  I hope that people will get the bug with the kits and then want to expand their knowledge and skill by building from a blank. 

[Pukka Bundook]

Being a gun nut from birth, I had made the odd 'gun' of types as a kid, but my first serious rifle was Jim Chambers Mark Silver kit.
When this was finished, (and it's still as good as they day it was made and Sooo reliable!)

I figured I had short changed myself, so made a few more, all plank blanks, buying less parts each time.
What I am saying, is that a quality kit got me started, and It had never dawned on me that I could make a'proper' rifle until After I had completed a kit.
So, the kit, (Thank you Jim!) got me started, and from there I branched out to other archaic arms.

I see no polarizing between kit/no kit, the kit is a Very valuable contribution to out sport.

[Daniel Coats]

Whether you're building from a blank or a kit it's critical to know what the finished gun is supposed to look like. Today's high quality kits get the average person there quicker. The exception to the rule person seems to knock it out of the park faster either way. Some of the instructional classes also help tip the scales.

High quality kits that look right along with knowledgeable instructions don't hurt anything.

[AZshot]

I'll give my story.  When I was 12-13 I discovered muzzle loading.  It was the mid 70s.  I bought a TC Hawkin kit and tried to make it perfect, but got frustrated with some stumbling blocks and stopped building it.  Bought one premade and shot it through my teens and bought a few other black powder rifles.  Was so dejected about the kit failure, I never tried another until this year's Kibler. 

While raising a family I couldn't afford a custom, though I loved looking at them in magazines.  Being from Winston-Salem, I thought "one day I'll get the Old Salem gunsmith to make me a NC rifle..."  But never did.  45 years went by, I went through many other vintage guns phases.  Thought briefly about learning to build a rifle from scratch...but knew it would be another steep learning curve experience, which I've had many of.

A few years ago decided to get back to my roots, shoot muzzle loaders again, and try flintlocks.  And learned more of my NC moutain heritage.  So I bought a custom Appalachian gun from Don Bruton, a Gillespie Rifle.  AFter a year - I decided to try a Kibler kit. 

Note there was a 45 year gap in my 2 kits.  And about a 20 year period when young when I couldn't afford buying a high end custom.  I have a brother-in-law that saw my Kibler finished, and mentioned he got an "old flintlock kit" from a friend who never finished it.  And now he's about to try...and will be frustrated because it's not easy.  Then may go "dormant" for decades like I did.  An easy kit is a GOOD thing.

I realize that besides general interest in "old things" declining, there is also the financial inability of young people to afford custom rifles.  And before "ready made" kits were available, the difficulty of "almost ready" kits scared off the young men who considered building a kit.  All three of these things hurt the career custom builders. 

Today, with Kibler kits and the internet, I think many people are diving it.  As they enjoy their kit, and their careers allow more disposible income, I bet they'll move into either A) building one from scratch, or B) paying a gunsmith to build a custom rifle.  Demographics of fewer people into history or guns at all is the main risk now. 

[P.W.Berkuta]

My interest in muzzle loaders started with watching Disney's Danial Boon and Davie Crocket in the 60's. Those TV shows were so cool that I said to myself I got to have one of those rifles. I purchased one of those ubiquitous cheap pistol kits in the mid 60's and put it together and soon found out that they were a piece of junk. My first rifle was in 1968 from a bunch of odd parts from different places like a Numrich Arms .45 caliber barrel that I could afford, some parts from Dixie Gun Works. I think the stock also came from Dixie. It came out "shootable" but did not look so good and I ran into a whole bunch of repair issues. I started building from planks in 1969 and found out quickly that I could make any style that I liked and if I messed up, I learned how to fix my mistakes very quickly. You do learn a LOT from your mistakes. Now I will build more quality kits than from a plank because of my arthritis and age.

[rich pierce]

Wow, I had no idea that this was such a polarizing issue.  I can say that I have assembled and finished 5 kits and have one in progress.  I wouldn't have any black powder guns otherwise unfortunately.   I enjoy assembling and finishing ... as well as shooting.  If I was younger, I might try "building" a rifle, but, as a gentleman earlier said, I am 3 days older than dirt.

I would say that I am sorry if my kit building offends some folks, but I'm not.  I do what I enjoy doing.  The finished product of some of these kits is beautiful and I really enjoy them. 

I can appreciate the effort of the real "builds" and my hat is off to you, however, please don't rain on my tiny parade

I’m not offended. As stated many times above, so many builders who eventually build from blanks started by building kits. Didn’t know you were having a parade, but I’ll cheer and rattle a cowbell for ya.

In any hobby there are degrees of immersion. The main thing for me is to enjoy it, keep my brain and hands engaged in interesting work, and enjoy the company of like-minded people. Lots of ways to do that.

The unique builds will always garner attention. Same with cars. I’ve got a Subaru Crosstrek. In Vermont, if mine wasn’t orange, nobody would notice as it’s practically the state car. For sure the Toyota Tacoma is the state truck. Not remarkable though very fine vehicles. If a Maserati or a restored 67 Mustang goes up our dirt road, I’ll take notice.

[Stoner creek]

Many of you know that I am a collector. I can argue that I am a serious collector. The vast majority of the pieces in my collection are contemporary flintlock rifles. I take pride in knowing that I own pieces made by some of the best makers to have ever picked up a tool. I currently own 3 rifles which started out as Chambers kits. These makers are Bob Harn, David Dodds, and Ian Pratt. All 3 are high art well executed pieces. I have another couple of guns on the way from other makers from another kit manufacturer.
 Do I think that the kits have affected contemporary makers? No. If anything the kits out there have upped everybody’s game. I have had more folks come to my shop asking for personal instruction than ever. A nice percentage of those students will follow up with another kit or take the plunge and start on a stick build!
W

[axelp]

There is no doubt that kits have had a significant impact on the hobby. Mostly good. Even awful non-historic kits have been a gateway to the hobby. Everyone has a story that flows down that creek. Fond memories of that cheap kit gun you started out with (and still carry) and the really nice gun you eventually broke the bank for... Besides most active top-shelf builders I hear of have waiting lists...

The fact that serious collectors collect finely wrought kit guns from accomplished known makers is proof that just like any art, it's mostly about the artist, not the materials. I treasure the Jim Chambers kit guns I have that are both built by a wellknown maker. They are decent reliable shooters too.

As a practitioner of the living history part of this hobby for a long time,  I appreciate the fact that historically correct kits are available so I can drag a good gun around in the woods to hunt with and not cry (too hard) when it gets scratched up.

K

[mountainman]

For your information I didn't start out with any kits, when I started it was around in the early 2000's, but by that time, there were more resources too on information on how to build one from a blank. I had build quite a few before I even attempted at a kit through an order, and I have assembled possibly about 8 kits, they are some challenges, but still a lot less work especially Kibler's.
That being said, in thinking of losing work to kit builders, and there were quite a few things mentioned, but one thing that wasn't was the cost of building from a blank versus a kit, a kit is way more affordable with the work being 87% complete whereas the custom gun you starting from scratch and the cost is probably anywhere between who knows what but could end up to $10,000 or more, the way the economy is right now and also the cost of living, I can see where that could have some potentials.

[Waksupi]

Regardless of what kit a beginner may put together, they gain the valuable experience of learning the relationship of parts to each other.
In the '70's in the midwest, it was common for at even the small rendezvous, people had enough parts on their blankets so you could gather enough to build a gun. I may have got spoiled by having the likes of Curly roll in driving the Polish War Wagon, brimming with parts.
My first build was from a plank, and fortunately had an experinced builder in all types of firearms living next door.

[StevenV]

The short answer NO!!! Age , social media/technology, other forms of entertainment/enjoyment have shown up over the past 15 years or so and so they garner our time/attention. We,  the black powder . flintlock, front stuffers group of gents and ladies don't have this lack of involvement/interest problem all to ourselves. Music stores that give instrument lessons, even high school sports are seeing major reduction in participants. Umpires, referees , not sure what that will look like in 10 yrs. from today. Around here not everyone plays varsity football Friday nights under the lights. Now it's Thursday , Friday and Saturday football games. Not enough referees to go around Friday night. So with that said , I have built about 20 guns all from planks. I do it all but exclusively for the enjoyment it brings me. I am SO THANKFUL to all the rest of you for keeping the light on so I can enjoy playing , shooting and making flintlocks. Without you there would be no gun shows (Dixon's/Kempton, Lewisburg/Carlisle, CLA, Bama's Show, and so many others. You kit makers keep making kits, if anything you are a positive influence on this past time. You parts makers A BIG THANK YOU !!!! I am happy to see the contemporary gun makers getting all they can get for the craft. These people are accomplished professionals that have a long and well earned skill that still have to fight butt plate to nose cap for every dollar they make. The only difference between our extremly talented makers be it kit or plank from Alaska to Alabama up to Pennsylvania out to Ohio and Michigan and everywhere in between and  our local dealer car/truck mechanics is their hourly rate. Around here $150.00 an hour for motor  vehicle mechanics,$100.00 an hour for tractor mechanics. A BIG THANK YOU TO THIS SITE AND ITS MODERATORS.                Steve

[Sidelock]

About 12 years ago, Jim Kibler showed up at the NMLRA Gunsmithing seminar with a bunch of his first kit guns for the students of a class he was going to teach that week.  A class on building one of his kits.  A couple of us custom guys were standing around as he was unpacking one of the kits.  Jim asked us what we thought of the kit.  I was admiring the fit and finish of the stock and inletting, done by a machine and feeling a little intimidated I popped off; "Well dang Jim, if you shook the box I think the rifle would build itself!"  I couldn't tell if Jim was offended or appreciative of my comment.

Everyone who showed up to that first class of Jim's at the seminar were new faces, newbies to gun building.  These were people who would have never dreamed of signing up for a class to say build a Jaeger from a pricey hunk of English Walnut and a pile of crude brass castings.  Each year there after at the Gunsmithing seminar, there was Kibler kit gun class.  And, each year there were new faces, students in the class.  Each year a few of those guys in that class would drift around to the other classes going on and watch what the plank/custom builders were learning.  I have to believe a few of those guys have moved on to custom building though I don't know for certain.

In my area, there remains a fair number of people who want custom sidelock firearms built in period correct fashion.  A good example here is I am currently finishing up a left handed fowler in Black Walnut for a customer, it has 1/4" of cast on and a length of pull to the trigger matched for him along with a few other specific features requested.  I am not aware of any left handed kits or production guns out there.  So, the left handed shooter has to come to a custom builder to get what he may want in an antique firearm build. 

So, to answer the question are availability of these kit gun reducing the number of people willing and able to build a custom piece from a pile of parts and a board?  IMO No.  The numbers of people willing to spend say 300 hrs. to build one of these guns is dropping yes, but that is happening for some or all of the reasons already mentioned by others, not the kit guns themselves. 

I am seeing problems for the custom builders from areas of greater concern than the kit gun market - inflation that has more than doubled the cost of parts for a build in the last 4 years, government regulations that are driving foundries that make some of the parts we need out of business, looming regulations that could result in a ban on lead both in the projectiles we use and in the parts for building just to name a few.

 As our society and economy change, all forms of hand craft, art, which is what these guns really are, is going to become harder and harder to come by.  Kudos to all on here who are fighting the head winds and keeping this art form alive. 



 

[RobertLosekamp]

I'm new to the black powder life, under two years of interest. I've put together a Traditions, two Kiblers (Colonial and SMR), working on replacing the Colonial's stock because it was destroyed in a shipping mishap.

I can say that I would have never even considered building from a plank had I not had these kits to learn on. Now, I have an understanding for how the parts go together, some semblance of geometry, and different techniques. I'm in my thirties now so there may be a plank in my future, who can say.

It's all thanks to Jim Kibler making an heirloom quality rifle an accessible reality for me and the wonderful folks like yourselves online providing the information/inspiration to keep our heritage alive.

[oldtravler61]

  This is interesting indeed. Back in the late 60 - 70 period of time. I got the bug and started doing CVA, T.C. kits and a few from pre carved stocks. To say I was turned off by kits is an understatement. So I tried scratch building. This I thoroughly enjoy doing through I still struggle with it.
 But it gives me great satisfaction good bad or otherwise. Now a long comes Kibler an well his kits are amazingly simple to do. They are as persice as you'd want a kit to be. I have put three together for friends and I just don't understand how some have so much trouble.
Do these kits affect the custom makers ? I doubt it and a few guys advertise that they will finish a kit for you.  I've seen a couple that were antique ed that were impressive . Surprised they were a Kibler kit.
 Reading on other forums they sure have brought a lot of folks to muzzleloaders.

[Bob Gerard]

Maybe the line is growing blurred between the two.
Some very high-end and Master gunmakers will send a blank out to be custom cut for barrel and perhaps for the ramrod. Farming out the grunt work is nothing new.
Some will buy parts from TRS or even Track to incorporate into their custom build.
It’s a step from all parts hand-made, but not at that generally recognized “kit” stage.
PS: a good many Master gunmakers do kits as well!
I asked Mike Gahagan once about his building a Kibler Colonial kit. He replied, “Why not?”.
Dang that gun became another work of art.

[JLayne]

My first flintlock was a Traditions Kentucky Rifle I bought in the 90’s just because I wanted to get into shooting flintlocks.  Others may have had different experiences, but mine was extremely disappointing. The thing would actually misfire about 9 of every 10 pulls of the trigger. Not knowing what else was out there in terms of quality, that experience put me off of pursuing the hobby further for many years.

In about 2017, I visited Colonial Williamsburg and Eric showed me some of the guns in the gunsmith shop and told me about Dixon’s Fair. I attended that year and asked around about the best way to get started in the hobby again and everyone recommended I start with a Kibler kit because of historical correctness and ease of assembly. I took their advice.

Now, I’ve assembled a few Kibler kits, a couple of Chambers kits, and one precarve I got from Knob Mountain. I don’t consider myself a builder and have not built from a blank as of yet but may give it a go at some point. That said, it seems to me there is a certain level of innate artistic ability required to shape a nice looking stock from a blank, and not everybody is going to have that ability (it may turn out that I am among them). That to me is where higher end kits like Kibler’s really fill a void because it provides a kit that most can complete and have a nice looking rifle that is, in my opinion, a huge step up from what can be bought in big box stores in terms of historically correct appearance and with reliable function to boot.

Jay

[Scota4570]

I find building from a plank easier than from a precarve.  I stick a drawing of the gun to the wood.  The drawing is as precise as I can make it.  I then band saw out the profile.   The square stock is made with 90* corners.  The in-letting is done on my 90 year old milling machines as much as possible.  The outside shaping falls into place because the exterior edges are already established by the square stock.  With a precarve there are no precise references and often various parts are inletted wrong by the pantograph guy. For isntance the barrel inlet is done seperatly from the outside and it was not jigged up right.  Or, commonly, the lock is in the wrong place.  That means a lot of unnecessary head scratching takes place to make a stock of the wonkie dimensions.   

[smart dog]

Hi,
While folks may pontificate on kits versus scratch builders, my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components.  This is particularly acute with cast steel parts such as standing breeches, trigger guards, and butt plates.  It is even worse if you build pistols.

dave 

[rich pierce]

Hi,
While folks may pontificate on kits versus scratch builders, my concern is loss of suppliers of components and the loss of diversity in those components.  This is particularly acute with cast steel parts such as standing breeches, trigger guards, and butt plates.  It is even worse if you build pistols.

dave

Yep, when Peter Allen stopped casting and didn’t want to sell his business, a lot of parts went missing.

[Brad Larson]

Like any hobby or nonprofit, etc., stability and growth depends on new blood, which usually but not always means younger people. Without that, there is a slow but inexorable decline. I would suggest that most of the builders today, myself in that category, are older and we grew up using hand tools and fixing or making things just as a matter of course. We were inspired by countless books and movies. Today, few people are familiar or comfortable with hand tools. I think kits fill that void and provide an entry point into this hobby that often consumes us. New participants may become inspired to support nonprofits like CLA, history museums, etc.. But, I think it's foolish to think that going forward there will be the same level of folks building from scratch; it's declining now.

[wpalongrifle]

I still have a five year backlog!
That was five years ago.
I’ve seen no end in sight as I had to stop taking custom orders.
Assembling kit guns and embellishment work has picked up dramatically.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yep, when Peter Allen stopped casting and didn’t want to sell his business, a lot of parts went missing.

And I am still enraged because a couple of those "reconversion" lock parts that were marketed through Track were exceptionally useful for easily customizing commercial locks to look more period-correct.