Barrel Steel?

[t.caster]

I know this has been discussed in the past but I can't find my notes.
What steel are the current barrel makers using? My hack saw and files tell me they are not all the same.

[rich pierce]

GM 1137. Ed Rayl something similar. Some of Rice’s light fowler barrels are made of special stuff. The rest are made of leaded steel.

[t.caster]

Thanks, Rich. Coleraine seems to be a harder steel....less lead? and I notice they rust quicker in use, than any other barrels I've used.

[rich pierce]

Thanks, Rich. Coleraine seems to be a harder steel....less lead? and I notice they rust quicker in use, than any other barrels I've used.

Not sure!

[Mattox Forge]

If anyone is using leaded steel, it is probably free machining 12L14. 

Mike

[Bob Roller]

Jim McLemore bought CERTIFIED gun barrel steel from another maker who had contracts for machine gun barrels and rapid firing cannons.That arrangement meant that light weight barrels and not worry about a blow up with black powder and lawyers specializing in blown up guns.I made screws from 12L14 and that was the intended idea for it and several degreed metalurgists thought I was kidding when I told them about muzzle loader barrels being made from 12L14.One of these was a woman who was a competition shooter with rifles said she would not want to be near any rifle barrel made from 12L14. Bill Large used 1144 sold as "Stressproof"and I made lock tumblers from it.Easy to machine and hardens like drill rod in oil.This is not certified for rifle barrels of any kind but is better than leaded screw stock.
Bob Roller

[J Shingler]

Getz, Rice and at one time Colrain all used 12L14. The pressure is not there with black powder. I have no idea about the substitute stuff. I only shoot black powder. Don Getz RIP once told me they did a test. Breached both ends of a 8" 12L14 barrel and drilled an 1/8 hole for a cannon fuse. Filled it with powder lit it and ran like $#*!! It did not rupture and all came out that 1/8 hole. I would rather a barrel stretch and bulge than be brittle and fragment.

[Daryl]

Jim McLemore used 4150.

[Roger B]

Why don't we have multiple reports of ruptured barrel in the historical literature in the forge welded  wrought iron days? We know that 18th & 19th century gunsmiths proved their barrels but i wonder what the rate of failure was.
Roger B.

[Daryl]

I recall reading somewhere, that when being proofed in Britain, the gun maker could hammer down bulges up to 2 or 3 times (IIRC) from Greener's book, and if they passed proof after that, they
were good to go and stamped as passing proof.

[Bob Roller]

Why don't we have multiple reports of ruptured barrel in the historical literature in the forge welded  wrought iron days? We know that 18th & 19th century gunsmiths proved their barrels but i wonder what the rate of failure was.
Roger B.

The people who lived when muzzle loaders were in common use did not put in big loads of powder  and my maternal grandfather was one of these,Clinton M.Taylor 1873-1972 showed me a common way ro use black powder,He laid a ,375 round ball in the palm of one hand and poured powder over it forming a cone.When the ball was covered that was the load.The pouring was from a horn.
Bob Roller

[Hudnut]

The use of 12L14 for barrels has been an ongoing controversy for many years.  Primary objection is that it tends to be brittle, rather than ductile.  If a barrel fails, a bulge or split is preferable to fracture and pieces being scattered.
The good news is that barrel failures are quite rare.
I have used 1137 blanks purchased from a barrel manufacturer.  Felt comfortable using it.

[Longknife]

I have a small book here somewhere written by Jerry Cunningham, "THE DESTRUCTIVE PROOF TESTING OF MUZZLE LOADING BARRELS". Jerry goes into great detail about trying to blow up M-L barrels made of 12L14. He finally succeeded in bulging a few by loading insane amounts of powder, several balls and even milling faults into them, but the It was nearly impossible!..LK

I am sure someone on here knows when Jerry made barrels. I can't remember! 

[Pukka Bundook]

Longknife,
To add to your post useful reply,

Back was it in the 80's, Sam Fadala did tests with regular copper water pipe as a barrel, and when loaded properly, (bball innpatch on powder, 130 grs of black and a .530 ball did not bulge the copper pipe.
Only when he separated ball and powder a few inches did the copper pipe rupture.

He 'breeched ' the pipe by standing it in a tin  can of molten lead and letting it set.

[Scota4570]

Given the proven safety record of 12L14 I am fine with it.  12L14 machines like a dream and give a wonderful surface finish.  I see poor quality machining of the inside of ML rifle barrels more often than not.  I'd prefer that the maker use 12L14. 

[Hudnut]

Wasn't Jerry Cunningham's company Orion Rifle Barrels? 

[Bob Roller]

One reason for no solid reports would be most shooters in any venue are NOT on a forum of any kind.G.R.Douglas had a light weight 12L14 barrel blow and liability insurance saved the business.A long time Douglas employee who is now deceased told me Douglas was dropping muzzle loaders because of the "It's gotta be cheap"attitude of so many that were involved with it.I got connected to the German Schuetzenbund due to that attitude and got Bill Large involved with them as well.Flintlocks were the thing and most of them I made went to Helmut Mohr who recently passed away and Guenther Stifter who called himself the "Flintknapper".When I wasn't making locks for the Germans I was making bronze bearings for automatic transmissions.THIS particular forum seems to be made up of those who don't let $10 stop what they want to make and I have not heard one complaint about price when I do offer some lock or trigger.Getting back to 12l14,I have had very negative results from metallurgists I asked about its use in gun barrels of any kind.

Bob Roller

[J Shingler]

The use of 12L14 for barrels has been an ongoing controversy for many years.  Primary objection is that it tends to be brittle, rather than ductile.  If a barrel fails, a bulge or split is preferable to fracture and pieces being scattered.
The good news is that barrel failures are quite rare.
I have used 1137 blanks purchased from a barrel manufacturer.  Felt comfortable using it.

12L14 brittle?? Never heard that one. That's what the L is for, Leaded. As for steel this is soft. Heck you can shave a slice of with good pen knife. I believe your mistaken. You can even forge out the tang of a breach plug to make it longer and don't have to worry about it hardening as there is no carbon.

Jeff

[Eric Kettenburg]

Jerry Cunningham was Orion barrels, and I think he had bought the business from someone earlier - not sure who.  I used a few of his barrels in the very late 1980s or early 1990s and they were quite accurate.  Very nice guy to talk with on the phone!  Shallow, wide grooves.  I still have a cut off piece of one, .62 at 1 1/8", maybe 32" long or so.  Figure I'll do something with it sooner or later.

When it comes to *custom* work (i.e. not TC or Pedersoli or all the big commercial stuff) there are probably more 12L barrels out there than all the others combined.  I have never seen anyone blow a 12L barrel or piece of barrel using blackpowder, even when trying deliberately.

Custom barrel makers today have to guard against stupidity, so I'm surprised any of them have any fingernails or hair left.

[Mattox Forge]

12L14 has much less elongation and % reduction than alloy steels like 1137 and 4150, or even regular low carbon steel.



This means the steel will not stretch or shrink down in area as much before it breaks.

I am just an engineer, not a metallurgist, but to me this means 12L14 is not as "tough", i.e. it doesn't stretch as much as other steels do before it gives way. Some might think of these characteristics as making the steel brittle, however.

The elongation and reduction numbers for 12L14 are similar to oil quenched 1095 that has been tempered to 400 degrees, or even 700 degrees.

I think to characterize it as "brittle" is giving it a bad rap. If we are to use these numbers to say that, then we have to say 1095 mainsprings tempered at 700 degrees are brittle as well.

You can also see that hardness, strength, and toughness do not add up to the same thing. 1020 has almost as good a yield strength as 12L14, but it is not as hard as 12L14. 1020 is not as strong as 12L14, but stretches more before it breaks. Hardness is only of value for determining other material properties when we know the alloy or grade of the steel.

Mike

[Bob Roller]

Going back to what Musician Peter Rowan called the "Walls of time" I remember is that TC had a problem with over tightened breech plugs and there were some with hidden fracture lines that blew off leaving the threaded part of the plug in the barrel.What was happening was that IF the plug did NOT align with the top flats the a big wrench and a strong person turned it until it did align and that was the beginning of grief for shooters and the company.There is sometimes a bug in the soup or a "road apple"in the pie but when the possibility of severe body injury is involved then the legal system can step in with a heavy shoe on each foot.
Bob Roller

[JTR]

I remember the court case regarding 12L14 barrels. One of the guys that posted here was the expert witness that testified that it was dangerous to use as a barrel material, and in the end bankrupted the Buckskin Report and its owner.
Obviously, with all the thousands of barrels made with that material and no disasters, that expert wasn't much of an expert, though never paid the consequences of his incorrect opinion. 

Not trying to rile up anyone, just remembering.

John

[Mattox Forge]

Did he have any evidence to back it up, like a barrel strength plot? Unless the barrel was made excessively thin,  12L14 should be fine. It is far stronger than anything tbr original guns were made from.

Mike

[rich pierce]

Did he have any evidence to back it up, like a barrel strength plot? Unless the barrel was made excessively thin,  12L14 should be fine. It is far stronger than anything tbr original guns were made from.

Mike

Mike, all that’s needed to win such a case in court is to ask a bunch of experts, who have zero experience with black powder, and are metallurgists who consult with modern guns, if 12L14 is a “barrel steel”.  They are horrified and say it’s insane to use it as a “gun barrel”. They don’t mention what context or compare it to wrought iron barrels. Game over.

[Mattox Forge]

In fact, you can make a barrel out of brass!

Mike