Can I make the T\C Hawken look better?

[Steeltrap]

Ok, I've tossed this idea around in my head for over a year. Maybe two. I have a T\C Hawken that I acquired in the late '70's and used it for hunting. It shot fine as long as the powder charge was 60gr FF under a PRB, but after a few shots, if I didn't do an alcohol swab, there was no way to get a third PRB down it.

So, over ten years ago I did the GM drop in barrel. Best thing that rifle ever saw for consistent accuracy.

Several years back I reshaped the stock and also installed a Hawken Plains DST and TG. I had those parts from buying bits and pieces with the intention of building a "real" Hawken. But that never happened.

So, I reshaped the stock, adding the trigger and TG, fashioning a toe plate, tossing those ugly T\C modern sights, and replaced the RR tubes under the barrel. The rifle looks better than the original T\C (IMHO). 

So, I was thinking.....what effort it would take to install the two front wedge keys?  I'd have to somehow conceal or mask the existing wedge key holes and oval brass. (I  actually inletted those oval brass wedge key supports). I'd also have to get a "real" nose cap and inlet a RR tube (which wouldn't be too bad) along with replacing the buttplate with a steel one and finally getting rid of the second most ugly T\C furniture item....the patch box. I'd put a "real" one on it. (BTW...the first ugly T\C furniture is the factory TG)

So, tell me I'm nutz....or provide some suggestions for coverup if the existing wedge key holes.

Here's my T\C today.....less the Lyman bulky peep sight.

[Eric Krewson]

Take the extra wood off the stock, lower the comb, reshape the cheek piece, define the lock panels, round the wrist and forearm, inlet the brass even with the wood surface, I had a broken toe on this one so I added a toe plate, I have re-shaped two of these stocks so far. What looks like an indention on the lock side is a grain swirl.

[JLayne]

Maybe some sort of decorative inlay? The risk is that the inlay along with two new wedge key and escutcheons on a halfstock forearm may end up looking “too busy.”

Just a thought.

Jay

[Eric Krewson]

The rifle pictured was from a very old gun kit that was found in my dad's closet when he went to assisted living.

I am an experienced builder and found this kit to be so rough that I doubt if a novice could have made much of a gun from it. They could have slapped the parts together to make someting that might shoot but it would look awful with all of the parts that didn't even come close to fitting.

[2 shots]

go to  the hawken shop for a conversion kit.

[2 shots]

 also check out Pecatonicas  t/c  hawken replacement stock

[Daryl]

I did as Eric did to his, along with casting a new forend tip from Babbit.
My barrel had a full .004" deep rifling and shot best with a .495" ball, .022" denim patch and 85gr. 2F GOEX. I was already smoothing the crown at that point to stop cutting and allow
me to use a thicker patch. No wiping necessary for a day's shooting. Maxiballs shot good as well, so I switched to those, as-did Taylor and friend Tom. Tom's rifle had almost invisible rifling,
only 1 1/2 thou. deep. It was over-bored as a maxi-ball would fall out the muzzle unless it was patched in cigarette paper.

[Steeltrap]

I did reshape the stock a few years back. I did not reduce the comb height as the gun shoulders well enough. Compared to Eric's pic I see where he made the cheek smaller. Eric..your rifle looks great!


I've looked at the Hawken Shop "conversion kit". But the only piece I need would be the buttplate as I already have the trigger and TG installed. I would not want the kit nose cap as I'd prefer reshaping the nose to look like the original plains rifle. (Separate nose cap and RR tube)

As for replacing the stock with Pecatonicas, that (to me) sort of defeats the purpose. Right now the only factory original pieces are the stock and the lock plus furniture (nose cap, buttplate, patchbox, etc.) If I were looking to replace the stock I'd just replace with an original shape Hawken, furniture and lock....and there would be no more "I've had this rifle since the late '70's" as nothing would be T\C. (A sentimental thing)

To me, the "bug-a-boo" is how to hide the factory wedge key holes in order to install a double wedge key in the right spots. I think, then to install a steel buttplate and original looking patchbox would look a bit closer to an original and much farther away than the factory cookie cutter.


I've internet searched to find a picture of either a forearm inlay or if someone else had done something like this without success. So, I come to the creative talent here to see if they have any ideas.

And I do humbly thank all for their input.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I sanded/scraped all the crappy factory finish off mine and then sealed the walnut in a hand rubbed oil finish. No dyes or stains. I sanded and buffed all the ugly flame bluing off the lock plate/hammer and aged the barrel with steel wool and scotchbrite pads. She's a real looker now. 

[CooleyS]

Here are my thoughts...I would not attempt to add two barrel keys and conceal the existing one. I don't think I'd be satisfied with having an inlay covering the existing one (it wouldn't look any more HC and it would likely look too busy) or attempting to inlay a wood patch (matching color, grain and texture is difficult). Right now you have a flintlock rifle, but there are no known flintlock Hawken rifles to start with, so you are attempting to re-create a unicorn to start with. Beyond that, there are actually one key J&S Hawken rifles (see below from John Baird's book 15 Years in the Hawken Lode, pages 60-61). I would use Eric's rifle as a model and take more wood off your rifle, thin and re-shape the cheek piece and call it a nice looking flintlock plains rifle! You could always fashion steel or silver key escutcheons (looks like yours are brass?) and that would match what was typical of an early plains rifle that was iron mounted. I understand your angst and wanting to make your rifle look more like a Hawken, but I think you are better off keeping the barrel keys as is.

-Steve

[Steeltrap]

CooleyS....I think you have provided me with the best evidence yet to not do a double key. No because it hasn't been done.....but more like I keep thinking that my "coverup" will just make things worse.

When I redid my stock I did make the cheek piece slightly smaller and I also cut in nose groves\cuts on both sides of the stock.However, I did not lower the comb as I kept thinking I'd have to shift the buttplate to a different angle.

But looking at Eric's re-do it appears he lowered the comb but kept the "line" on the same plane....and (likely) just trimmed of some of the bottom of the buttplate. I wish that idea had occurred to me when I redid the stock.

After I removed all the factory finish and whiskered it, I applied a sealer, then several coats of True Oil. I do like the finish. I blackened all brass as I'm not really a fan of shiny brass....especially on a hunting rifle.

So, you have all given me many ideas and I appreciate that. When I make up my mind I'll post the outcome. 

[Paul from KY]

I renovated a flintlock TC "Hawken" kit gun that a guy had messed up and sold on Gunbroker.  I took a lot of the wood off and reshaped the cheek piece like Eric did, so the bottom contour blended into the wrist of the stock.  I replaced the funky coil spring lock with a L&R lock, which speeds up lock time and deletes the cheesy stamped "engraving". A steel conversion hardware kit from the Hawken Shop completed the job.  The only problem I faced was the L&R lock plate, which is slightly shorter than the factory unit, but a thin walnut insert fixed that.  I thought about going for two barrel wedges, but like others have said, there isn't enough room to install another wedge without the forearm looking busy.  The bottom line is there is only so much you can do with one of these guns.

[Daryl]

Before the "work" on my TC.
1973 Bear Hunt up the Nass Valley, Northern B.C.

[Habu]

Years ago--starting around '82-'83 I think--one of the guys in our club re-worked a TC Hawken.  He modified the triggers so they didn't look TC-ish.  He installed a longer after-market barrel with Andy Fautheree's California sights, and stretched the breechplug tang.  The new buttplate and triggerguard came from the Hawken Shop, the new wedge escutcheons and wedge were shop-made.  He re-finished the stock and gave the metal a fine-grained rust browning.  It still looked like a TC. 

Not satisfied, he cast a pewter nosecap and replaced the patchbox with a Hawkenesque pineapple.  Still a TC. 

Then he got to work and polished off all of that god-awful cast-in "engraving", and replaced the hammer and hammer screw (if I remember right, the hammer was an original Golcher, and the screw was shop-made. 

Finally, it clearly "wasn't" a TC.  It actually looked like a fairly-decent light plains rifle, shot like a house-afire, and he was happy. 

[reddogge]

Here's one I did for my brother in law. I forget where I got the parts but I did this in the 80s or 90s.

[Eric Krewson]

Here is #2, same reshape job, someone had already cut the spur off the trigger guard before i got the stock, I used a GM drop-in barrel for this gun.

 



The tang screw holes were stripped out so replaced the screws with tang bolts, I installed threaded bushings under the trigger plate.



Done;

[whetrock]

Years ago--starting around '82-'83 I think--one of the guys in our club re-worked a TC Hawken.  He modified the triggers so they didn't look TC-ish.  He installed a longer after-market barrel with Andy Fautheree's California sights, and stretched the breechplug tang.  The new buttplate and triggerguard came from the Hawken Shop, the new wedge escutcheons and wedge were shop-made.  He re-finished the stock and gave the metal a fine-grained rust browning.  It still looked like a TC. 

Not satisfied, he cast a pewter nosecap and replaced the patchbox with a Hawkenesque pineapple.  Still a TC. 

Then he got to work and polished off all of that god-awful cast-in "engraving", and replaced the hammer and hammer screw (if I remember right, the hammer was an original Golcher, and the screw was shop-made. 

Finally, it clearly "wasn't" a TC.  It actually looked like a fairly-decent light plains rifle, shot like a house-afire, and he was happy.

Habu, The one you are describing sounds a bit like George Washington's hatchet. Handle has been replaced three times, and the head twice, but it's the hatchet he used to cut down the cherry tree.

I've modified stuff before, too. How does one decided when to stop modifying a rifle, and instead just build a new one?

[Steeltrap]

Here's one I did for my brother in law. I forget where I got the parts but I did this in the 80s or 90s.

Red Dog.....I do like that finish. Did you stripe that or is that the actual wood?

I see you took out the cheek piece completely and did a "traditional" nose cap and entry pipe.

[Steeltrap]

Here is #2, same reshape job, someone had already cut the spur off the trigger guard before i got the stock, I used a GM drop-in barrel for this gun.


The tang screw holes were stripped out so replaced the screws with tang bolts, I installed threaded bushings under the trigger plate.

I did the GM barrel for mine ten or more years ago. Now it's finally consistently accurate. The whole reason I swapped out the trigger and TG is because I hate the look of that spur!!!

[Steeltrap]

Habu, The one you are describing sounds a bit like George Washington's hatchet. Handle has been replaced three times, and the head twice, but it's the hatchet he used to cut down the cherry tree.

I've modified stuff before, too. How does one decided when to stop modifying a rifle, and instead just build a new one?

I know you didn't direct this question at me, but IMHO I think you stop modifying it when your finally happy with the outcome.

[Daryl]

Here's one I did for my brother in law. I forget where I got the parts but I did this in the 80s or 90s.

Now THAT is a well done "conversion".

[whetrock]

Habu, The one you are describing sounds a bit like George Washington's hatchet. Handle has been replaced three times, and the head twice, but it's the hatchet he used to cut down the cherry tree.

I've modified stuff before, too. How does one decided when to stop modifying a rifle, and instead just build a new one?

I know you didn't direct this question at me, but IMHO I think you stop modifying it when your finally happy with the outcome.

LOL! Yeah, I guess so!
When I wrote the question earlier I was thinking about a discussion I had with my wife. I was showing her a pistol I built a lot of years ago, and saying I wanted to refinish it, do this, fix that, etc. She pointed out that I was just obsessing over old mistakes, and said, "Just build a new pistol." Her point was that the learning process is a process. It's not necessary to hide old mistakes that were part of the process. Just keep moving forward.
That may not apply to this thread at all, but it was helpful advice for me.

[PEARL DRUMS]

There is a fella on the other muzz site who says he has PILES of factory seconds he sells dirt cheap. Perhaps that's the best way to make what your eyes want to see. Start with a relatively blank canvas and go from there. You always have your current stock to fall back on if you mess up a few of the stocks from him. I think he was asking about $25 per.

[reddogge]

Steeltrap, that is a premium curly maple stock from Fajen my BIL won at a DU dinner. The cheekpiece was never on it from the beginning. I had to put that steel patch over the inlet for the crappy brass patchbox. If I had more time back then I would have made a real patchbox out of steel. There were no patchboxs in steel back then.

Daryl,
Thanks, I think it turned out well.

[PEARL DRUMS]

That is the prettiest "TC" I have ever laid eyes on.