Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video

[canadianml1]

I would say it looks like 32 inches in length.

[Hawg]

Close. It's 31.

[canadianml1]

Beauty is in the eye of the holder! JK is a real artist so I am sure he will make his Hawken a beauty. Just my 2 cents worth is all!

[Scota4570]

I did a fair amount of reading and research.  My goal was to make a rifle that was about average to the originals.  I made this one. 

Barrel, 34 1/2" to the tang.  1 1/8" to 1" taper.  54 cal.  11-pounds.  To heavy for me. Shot it once. 

I think Jim is correct.  I am eager to assemble one. 

[Hawg]

I did a fair amount of reading and research.  My goal was to make a rifle that was about average to the originals.  I made this one. 

Barrel, 34 1/2" to the tang.  1 1/8" to 1" taper.  54 cal.  11-pounds.  To heavy for me. Shot it once. 

I think Jim is correct.  I am eager to assemble one. 

Mine is 11 pounds. I carried it in the woods for years and never found it to be heavy.

[canadianml1]

Nine and a half pounds is good!

[Hawg]

Jim said his will be around 8 1/2 pounds. Jim's rifle will be a rifle that could have very well existed in the 1850's. I know beyond a doubt it will be a high quality very well made rifle. I just wish he'd called it a Rocky Mountain Loudsenboomer or something.

[Steeltrap]

Here in Pennsylvania, we can only use flintlocks for deer hunting in the post Christmas flintlock season. OF course, we can use a cap lock in regular rifle season or the early in-line season.

But if one is going to invest $1,000+ in a "primitive" rifle here in Pa., IMHO a flintlock would be the smarter choice.

Just curious is there will be an offering in flint?

[okawbow]

LOL! Every time we see a post about Kibler flintlocks, someone asks if they are offering that rifle in percussion 😁
Lots of fine Kibler flintlocks to chose from. I’ve found them to be extremely reliable and accurate hunting rifles at a great price.

[Daniel Coats]

I guess what tickles me in some of the responses is the apparent need to fix the Kibler Hawken. It should have a different twist or a different barrel length or a different weight or a different ignition or a different name or offered in left hand on and on and on. Reminds me of a bunch of college kids that have to be part of the game and rush out on the field. The finished rifle will be every bit as nice as all of the other offerings from the Kibler team so sit back and wait for it and enjoy it when it arrives. Yep I'm on the waiting list!

[AZshot]

I agree.  On "the other forum" there have been a few people asking for fringe reqirements that keep piping up for:

1.  Left Handed versions.  There are 10% of the population that are left handed.  So Kibler will sell 9 guns for every 1 leftie, that is IF the leftie actually buys a new gun.

2. Flintlock.  There are many other rifles available for flintlock.  Asking for a flintlock hawken is like asking for a percussion on an 1822 Appalachian long rifle.  Yes, there may have been one, or two.

3. Full stock.  This would be the easy one, I surmise.

Black powder shooting is a niche (archaic powder), within a niche (historic designs).  Trying to futher make a new kit to fit the above niches would result in many manhours of work, to sell maybe 10% more.  Once all the "regular" sales start to peter out, it might be time to consider...but not at initial release.

[Jim Kibler]

I guess what tickles me in some of the responses is the apparent need to fix the Kibler Hawken. It should have a different twist or a different barrel length or a different weight or a different ignition or a different name or offered in left hand on and on and on. Reminds me of a bunch of college kids that have to be part of the game and rush out on the field. The finished rifle will be every bit as nice as all of the other offerings from the Kibler team so sit back and wait for it and enjoy it when it arrives. Yep I'm on the waiting list!

Thanks Daniel.  Sure do appreciate your thoughts.

[Hawg]

I guess what tickles me in some of the responses is the apparent need to fix the Kibler Hawken. It should have a different twist or a different barrel length or a different weight or a different ignition or a different name or offered in left hand on and on and on. Reminds me of a bunch of college kids that have to be part of the game and rush out on the field. The finished rifle will be every bit as nice as all of the other offerings from the Kibler team so sit back and wait for it and enjoy it when it arrives. Yep I'm on the waiting list!

It will be a nice rifle and loved by many. Of that I have no doubt but when he started talking about building a Hawken some of us got our hopes up. Nobody makes a true representation of a Hawken. The Pedersoli Rocky Mountain is about as close as they come. That's the only thing but you have to please the masses and I don't blame him for making it the way he did. He's in it to make money and this rifle will sell like hotcakes.

[AZshot]

Correct my logic if it's wrong:
Most Hawkens are different from each other. Hawkens were made over a long period by several different gunsmiths.
By deductive reasoning, there IS no template for what "makes a Hawken".

Here's what I hear in a lot of comments:
"I believe [unstated example rifle] is THE most representitive Hawken ever made.  Because it has [xyz feature, unstated what that is]. 
Therefore, whatever Kibler makes cannot be a real Hawken."

The latter is flawed logic.

Or sometimes a negative post with backhanded compliments like, "I'm [sure it will sell...to each his own...it's a business...most don't know better...blah] believe a REAL hawken must have ALL these things [various twist, weight, sight position, etc...]:

It is going to be a good gun and I hope you sell a lot of them but to me it's no more a Hawken than the Italian guns.

Rationalizing using each variable feature by finding at least one original Hawken made with that feature is a fools errand for these types of people. 

[AZshot]

Yes, your logic is wrong because even though there many variations if you study original Hawkens long enough, you'll know one if you see one

Implying I don't know, or Jim doesn't know?  I'm not certain about your point.  My first foray into Hawkens was in the 1970s.  I suppose I didn't ever handle any originals in the interveneing 45 years, but I've read a lot.  I know one when it has the BASIC features.  But I could be in the dark, there may be a lot of other large caliber, half stock, heavy barrel, looped triggerguard (iron) rifles made in St. Louis for the Western frontier.  But they weren't made by a Hawken, so they aren't one.  I'm starting to feel I agree with the comments of some that say "just don't call it a Hawken".  Plain's rifle, or a "J. K. Hawken" would work.  Some could say it stands for "Just Kidding Hawken."

And your post is the same vague, non-specifics that I'm talking about.  Ad Hominem argument instead of talking about the facts and features.  And the type of arguement I'll ignore from now on. The "you don't know what I know" type.

[Steeltrap]

I agree.  On "the other forum" there have been a few people asking for fringe reqirements that keep piping up for:

1.  Left Handed versions.  There are 10% of the population that are left handed.  So Kibler will sell 9 guns for every 1 leftie, that is IF the leftie actually buys a new gun.

2. Flintlock.  There are many other rifles available for flintlock.  Asking for a flintlock hawken is like asking for a percussion on an 1822 Appalachian long rifle.  Yes, there may have been one, or two.

3. Full stock.  This would be the easy one, I surmise.

Black powder shooting is a niche (archaic powder), within a niche (historic designs).  Trying to futher make a new kit to fit the above niches would result in many manhours of work, to sell maybe 10% more.  Once all the "regular" sales start to peter out, it might be time to consider...but not at initial release.

I wasn't seeking input to suggest full stock version....nor a lefty version.

You are quick to point out that lefty versions do not have the same market potential as right hand versions.

Since sales drive profits and profits cover cost I simply was stating a fact that living here in Pennsylvania, the majority of BP rifles that are purchased are flintlocks. That's because the hunting laws require a flintlock for the post Christmas "Flintlock season.".  The Pennsylvania Game Commission refers to this post season deer hunting as the "After Christmas Flintlock Muzzle Loader Season"

The Game Commission doesn't care about historical correctness. My suggest was that if you want to capture a market share of Pennsylvania hunters.....of which there are over a million.....then perhaps consideration of a flintlock version may be a good idea. 

[stan57]

I'm curious, but I gotta hold one first . When he starts shipping, one of you guys hurry up and finish it and bring it to Jim Parker's show or the Knoxville show and let me fondle it.

[smylee grouch]

Seems to be a lot of nit picking going on and yet no one has insisted that all the screw slots be indexed for and aft or only one pin holding the rear ramrod pipe. 

[oldtravler61]

  I really don't like Hawkens for looks. For me there just butt ugly. But they are what I got started with and a great hunting gun...lol
  But I have several friends who would dearly love his SMR in percussion.
He would sell bunches.

[AZshot]

Go ahead and drive yourself crazy with your "logic" and ignore whatever you want, your rants aren't helping anything.

Ha, far from it.  I enjoy reasoned debate and it's fun to point out falicies when people will not communicate clearly.  Sorry if you feel skewered by my rapier-like wit. And are confusing it with a 'rant.'

[Daryl]

Sure is lovely weather we're having in North America.

[Dave Marsh]

Yep, fine weather.

[delivered]

Have you considered offering an option with the Hawkins Cap box?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

With five pages of posts about Jim's new offering, I feel like it's time to throw my thoughts into the fray.  Personally, I like the new Hawken rifle!  That it doesn't weigh 12 pounds is a good thing, and one of the endearing features that appeals to me, as the Hawken rifle I built for myself is starting to weigh heavy at 12 pounds.  The fancy entry pipe finial and the sculpted end of the trigger plate also are not offensive to me.  If anything, they add grace and appeal to the otherwise plain rifle.  The straight break off as opposed to the slant breech, is an early Hawken feature, and I also don't have any issues with that.  That the standing breech and tang are machined to a perfect fit without filing is a huge boon to the rifle maker.  I prefer sights further down the barrel, around the entry pipe to be honest, as long as they are not at the balance point of the rifle where they are hard on the hand during carrying.  Jim says he doesn't like the Hawken trigger guard but I do!  I'm fine with the one he has illustrated.  And I don't have any issues calling it a Hawken.  Those who know me will agree that I am a serious Hawken student, and the bottom line for me is that I am tickled with this new Hawken rifle.  Way to go Jim Kibler et al.  Looking forward to seeing one finished up.
And as Daryl has pointed out, what a lot of weather we've had lately.

[ScottH]

For those that wish for a longer barreled heavier rifle in kit form, there is still one available from The Hawken Shop.
34" or 36" barrel and it will weigh 10.75 to 11 pounds.
And Track offers a full stock flintlock kit too, most all the parts are listed as in stock today.
Having choices is great!