Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video

[Jim Kibler]

Keep in mind the video is a computer generated drawing without fine details the actual gun will likely knock your socks off.

Thanks Dan.  We're working really hard to make this an amazing rifle from a design and workmanship point of view.  Hawkens aren't my thing, but I'm excited about how this is shaping up and what I think it will be.

[Jakob]

Jim, will the price point be simiar to your current offerings?

[Jim Kibler]

Jim, will the price point be simiar to your current offerings?

  Yes, should be.

[Hawg]

I'm sure it will be a great seller.

[ClaMar]

I'd prefer a 1:60 to 1:65 twist in the .54.  I'd also prefer a straight taper vs. swamped.  The rear sight position is further forward than any of the originals-most of them were midway between the keys or closer to the rear key.

Clarence

[Jim Kibler]

If I wouldn't have announced the VERY slight swamp, you and about everyone else would never be aware of it.  As to the sight placement, if it is moved back, I will have loads of people complaining they can't see the sights.  This placement is the same as on the rest of our rifles, which seems to be a happy medium.  You never know though, I might end up moving it back a touch.  What did Rich Pierce say?

[Daniel Coats]

I think he said:

"There was a lot of variety in what they made. Some folks are going to like a particular style of what they made and some prefer another. That’s how people are. I’m a fan of the earliest J&S Hawken percussion rifles associated with the early Rocky Mountain fur trade. Others want a flint Hawken. Some want the later Santa Fe and buffalo guns. Some want a full stock. No single offering can meet everyone’s dream gun. Doesn’t matter who is making it or how well made it is." 

[Scota4570]

Putting the rear sight on the center of gravity would not be good. 

Other than that I no longer care. 

I used to put it more forward so I could "see" it.  I now locate mine about 6" from the breech end per NMLRA rules.  That makes a longer sight radius.  Thing is you can not focus on the rear sight or target and shoot well.  You need to focus on the front sight.  Switching your focus between the three is a young man's game.  It does not work anyway. 

[Hawg]

No you can't please everybody and in a case like this what will sell the most wins. I realize I'm in a minority on this but I am what I am and make no apologies for it. As for the rear sight location many original rifles had the sight moved forward as eyes aged. I've seen pics of rifles with as many as four dovetails where the sight had been moved. My Hawken has a full buckhorn that I use as a ghost ring. I wish I could find one that would fit my woodsrunner.

[Bob Gerard]

Hopefully no patent breech!

[Daryl]

No you can't please everybody and in a case like this what will sell the most wins. I realize I'm in a minority on this but I am what I am and make no apologies for it. As for the rear sight location many original rifles had the sight moved forward as eyes aged. I've seen pics of rifles with as many as four dovetails where the sight had been moved. My Hawken has a full buckhorn that I use as a ghost ring. I wish I could find one that would fit my woodsrunner.

You've tried Trackofthewolf I assume.

[Hawg]

No you can't please everybody and in a case like this what will sell the most wins. I realize I'm in a minority on this but I am what I am and make no apologies for it. As for the rear sight location many original rifles had the sight moved forward as eyes aged. I've seen pics of rifles with as many as four dovetails where the sight had been moved. My Hawken has a full buckhorn that I use as a ghost ring. I wish I could find one that would fit my woodsrunner.

You've tried Trackofthewolf I assume.

Yes. The woodsrunner has a 3/4" dovetail. I can't find one anywhere.

[Snowmoon]

Keep in mind the video is a computer generated drawing without fine details the actual gun will likely knock your socks off.

Thanks Dan.  We're working really hard to make this an amazing rifle from a design and workmanship point of view.  Hawkens aren't my thing, but I'm excited about how this is shaping up and what I think it will be.

I can't wait to see you walking us through all of the little details and flourishes that will have gone into the final product in a future video. Hearing the weapon artist talk about the intention and design work behind his product is a great pleasure. Some really great swordmakers do the same thing. Can you comment on the relative ease or difficulty of making and fitting barrel keys for this project? I wonder how close your machining process gets you.

[redheart]

Apparently an American made rifle product means nothing to you?

It's not that. Jim's rifles are much better quality than the Italian guns. I love the amount of work he puts into them and the lack of work it takes to finish one out. It does look like something that could have been made in the 1850's but if you're going to call a rifle a Hawken at least stick to the original design. If I didn't already have a Hawken that's closer to the original I'd probably be all over it.

I have to agree with Hawg. The more it drifts away from being like the original the less justification you can find in replacing your good old Italian Hawken. If you look at the Bridger, Carson and "Liver Eatin" Johnston's Hawken, you see Sam settling into a pretty standard pattern for his standard plains rifle. I was hoping that Jim was going to pretty much hold to this pattern so we could buy the equivalent of a mint condition original simple late Hawken rifle without paying $30,000 for one. but it looks like it will slip into blasphemous territory for us traditional Hawken lovers. Too bad he can't offer a traditional style and a lightweight hunters Hawken with Kibler modifications. I'm glad I kept my expectations low so's to not be terribly dissapointed. :'(

[smylee grouch]

Hopefully no patent breech!

  Some people don't like patent breeches but if I was to buy or build  a Hawken plains rifle I would insist on one.

[Hawken2012]

I imagine the finished Kibler Hawken will look very similar to this one that Louie Parker made a few years back. 

https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2014/12/hawken-by-louie-parker.html

It has the same decorative trigger plate and entry pipe.  I always liked the Hawken rifles that Louie made, they had his own flair and were just a little different than the typical Hawken.  Now we get a chance to own a similar one!  I'm excited to get a Kibler Hawken! 

Jim, add a toe plate to the design, like you possibly mentioned in the video.  I'm also a vote for moving the rear sight back a little, on a halfstock it looks a little odd being that far forward. 

I will be the first to order when they are available!  Thanks Jim! 

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks!  You understand!

[Leatherbark]

I would humbly ask for you to consider using something other than the 1/70 twist.  A 1/48 with the usual deep rifling up to a 1/60 would let match shooters use smaller charges for accurate loads.

Regards,

Bob

[AZshot]

I put in an order when I first heard about it.  I'm not that big on Hawkens anymore since I was a kid, I love the thin mountain long rifles.  But what the heck, I'll help out a good businessman and make one.  Don't know if it's "first come first served" on your order list.  But I do want to change a couple things if you need those metrics.  I've decided to go maple, and .54. 

[alacran]

I will keep my opinions to myself until I see the end product. I' sure some will be pleased and some will not.

[Bob Roller]

The Hawken took off as a gun to build in 1967 (maybe).That was the year I met Tom Dawson and John Baird when delivering locks to Bill Large.Tom had a fine opy he made with all the detail and wear and dents sen in a used up antique.He was the master of tiny details most of us didn't see.I asked him where he got the butt plates and trigger guards and the answer was,"I bashed them out of whatever was handy and usable I can find".Bill Large started getting orders and I had orders for locks and triggers and Tom furnished plate profiles and trigger bar curvatures and trigger profiles and positions in the bar.I made a representative.rifle in 54 caliber and shot it in the first Hawken match on the "primitive range" at Friendship in 1969 (I think).Tom had a fine copy of the Mariano Modena Hawken and I fired it and made an X 10 at
more than 100 yards.I forgot the actual distance.My reward was a fat lip from the poor stock design cheek rest.I think I had Dennis Glazener post pictures I sent him of this first Hawken match.It was won by a man who arrived late with a "Kentucky"rifle that bore no resemblance to a Hawken and the recoil of a 22. .

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

I know the approach I've used in designing this rifle is not for every person and that's of course okay. I would like to elaborate on my personal perspective just a bit though... No, this rifle will not be exactly like any original existing Hawken rifle, and I believe this to be a good thing!!! I don't drink the Hawken Kool-Aid. I really don't fully understand the widespread alure or fascination.

From the perspective of a previous high end custom gunbuilder, the design and workmanship of the vast majority of originals is pretty weak. So, why would I want to repeat what I see as shortcomings? What I've done is create a gun that has characteristics of many Hawken rifles and other guns from the same time period and generally similar geographic area in such a way that I am pleased. Really, this isn't any different than I've done on any of our other offerings as well! The only difference is these guns don't have the cult following. This is pretty much the approach many of the best custom builders today.

To be perfectly frank, I find many or most Hawken originals and contemporary recreations to be pretty awful. Sure, they have some neat characteristics, but as a whole I think they don't stand up well. I'm trying to change this.

As to the name, I don't really have much of an opinion... Hawken is very recognizable and that is a good thing. Think about all the crummy kit guns with names attached to them from years past. So, if someone doesn't like the name associated with our kit, I don't know what to tell you.

Okay, enough pontificating! The response from this latest offering has been absolutely amazing! Better than we've ever seen before. So please accept my heart felt thank you! Our customer base is really amazing.

[oldtravler61]

  Jim I'm not much of a Hawkens guy either. But a 1/48 twist would be nice. JMHO . but whatever you do like everything else. It will sell..

[Scota4570]

  Jim I'm not much of a Hawkens guy either. But a 1/48 twist would be nice. JMHO . but whatever you do like everything else. It will sell..

Ditto!!  And not super deep rifling .   I see this rifle as a club shoot gun.  Also, if I recall right, Hawken used a 1:48 twist on the original rifles. 

I would pay more for a "match grade" barrel.  IT would be a pity to get a poorly done bore with such a fine rifle.  They have to be accurate.  I have scrapped four barrels, from three different makers,  all with unusable bores, in the past few years.   

[CooleyS]

I am a certified Hawken nerd and was indoctrinated at a young age by my father who knows more about Hawken rifles than most anyone I’ve met. Over the years I have been to Gordon’s museum in New Mexico, Bob Browner’s in St. Louis and others, and I’ve been fortunate enough to handle many original Hawken rifles. Unlike Kibler, I do like their architecture, albeit a bit awkward and different from the classic longrifle appearance. For the most part the heavy plains rifle was intended to be carried a-horseback, not walking around with a 12 pound rifle in hand. Just look at the number of rifles with wear plates on the forestock from being carried across the saddle and shot from shooting sticks, which supposedly came with the rifles. A heavy straight barreled rifle is not easily shot off hand, at least not for long! A heavy plains rifle doesn’t make much sense for today’s shooter and hunter…enter the Kibler Hawken.
I have to admit that it wasn’t what I was hoping for initially, but it’s growing on me and it is a fine looking rifle. Kibler addressed many of my questions and hesitations above and although different from what we think of as the classic Hawken, it’s still a Hawken. Hawken rifles were all different, some more than others, and not one was the same as the next. The Kibler Hawken follows in line with that. My biggest fear is that Kibler is going create a new generation of folks claiming they have a genuine “Hawkins” rifle! (Ha, if you get it you get it).
I have no doubt that it will be a beautiful, extremely well engineered tack driver, just like his other offerings. In the end, I appreciate the enthusiasm and interest that Kibler kits are bringing to a dwindling field of interest.
-Steve