Author Topic: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video  (Read 6704 times)

Offline Dave Marsh

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2025, 10:10:53 PM »
Yep, fine weather.
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Offline redheart

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2025, 10:43:32 PM »

Go ahead and drive yourself crazy with your "logic" and ignore whatever you want, your rants aren't helping anything.
Ha, far from it.  I enjoy reasoned debate and it's fun to point out falicies when people will not communicate clearly.  Sorry if you feel skewered by my rapier-like wit. And are confusing it with a 'rant.'
No worries, I'm OK with respectfully bowing out and leaving you free to display your rapier-like wit and submerge yourself in your narcistic delusional world.

Offline delivered

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #102 on: February 01, 2025, 12:18:59 AM »
Have you considered offering an option with the Hawkins Cap box?
"Ruining the future for liberals, one child at a time."

Online D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2025, 12:31:05 AM »
With five pages of posts about Jim's new offering, I feel like it's time to throw my thoughts into the fray.  Personally, I like the new Hawken rifle!  That it doesn't weigh 12 pounds is a good thing, and one of the endearing features that appeals to me, as the Hawken rifle I built for myself is starting to weigh heavy at 12 pounds.  The fancy entry pipe finial and the sculpted end of the trigger plate also are not offensive to me.  If anything, they add grace and appeal to the otherwise plain rifle.  The straight break off as opposed to the slant breech, is an early Hawken feature, and I also don't have any issues with that.  That the standing breech and tang are machined to a perfect fit without filing is a huge boon to the rifle maker.  I prefer sights further down the barrel, around the entry pipe to be honest, as long as they are not at the balance point of the rifle where they are hard on the hand during carrying.  Jim says he doesn't like the Hawken trigger guard but I do!  I'm fine with the one he has illustrated.  And I don't have any issues calling it a Hawken.  Those who know me will agree that I am a serious Hawken student, and the bottom line for me is that I am tickled with this new Hawken rifle.  Way to go Jim Kibler et al.  Looking forward to seeing one finished up.
And as Daryl has pointed out, what a lot of weather we've had lately.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline ScottH

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #104 on: February 01, 2025, 01:04:13 AM »
For those that wish for a longer barreled heavier rifle in kit form, there is still one available from The Hawken Shop.
34" or 36" barrel and it will weigh 10.75 to 11 pounds.
And Track offers a full stock flintlock kit too, most all the parts are listed as in stock today.
Having choices is great!

Offline redheart

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #105 on: February 01, 2025, 02:09:06 AM »
With five pages of posts about Jim's new offering, I feel like it's time to throw my thoughts into the fray.  Personally, I like the new Hawken rifle!  That it doesn't weigh 12 pounds is a good thing, and one of the endearing features that appeals to me, as the Hawken rifle I built for myself is starting to weigh heavy at 12 pounds.  The fancy entry pipe finial and the sculpted end of the trigger plate also are not offensive to me.  If anything, they add grace and appeal to the otherwise plain rifle.  The straight break off as opposed to the slant breech, is an early Hawken feature, and I also don't have any issues with that.  That the standing breech and tang are machined to a perfect fit without filing is a huge boon to the rifle maker.  I prefer sights further down the barrel, around the entry pipe to be honest, as long as they are not at the balance point of the rifle where they are hard on the hand during carrying.  Jim says he doesn't like the Hawken trigger guard but I do!  I'm fine with the one he has illustrated.  And I don't have any issues calling it a Hawken.  Those who know me will agree that I am a serious Hawken student, and the bottom line for me is that I am tickled with this new Hawken rifle.  Way to go Jim Kibler et al.  Looking forward to seeing one finished up.
And as Daryl has pointed out, what a lot of weather we've had lately.

Taylor, I can't believe that you of all people have gone over to the dark side. I definitely feel like the sky is falling!  ::) :D

Offline 3thumbs

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2025, 06:54:46 PM »
As always, it seems when the name "Hawken" shows up in a post, there are tons of ideas and opinions! I don't know Jim Kibler, but I feel sure he is shocked at the response of his Hawken rifle update video. I tend to fall into the same catagory as Redheart, and think that any new entry named Hawken should be as close to an original as possible. I, like a lot of folks, started my interest in muzzleloading back in the late 70's and early 80's. I remember my awe at being able to handle several original Hawken rifles at Friendship, when Art Ressel owned the Hawken Shop in St. Louis, and brought a nice selection of originals to the shoots. Anyway, with all the technology and fine pictures available now, everyone should be familiar with what makes a true replica of a Hawken. I love the quality of Mr. Kibler's products, but I just wish he would not call it a Hawken! Even with every one of the originals being somewhat different from each other, they all have certain similarities that are very obvious to those of us who love the looks and feel of the originals. Most any other kind of muzzleloading rifle can be modified to the builders satisfaction, but to some of us diehards, Jim's current offering has drifted too far to be called Hawken. I have huge respect for Taylor and his wonderful work(and thank you, Taylor, for all the pictures and posts showing you making a 'real' Hawken replica), and because of what he recently posted, I will probably buy one of Jim Kibler's kits, but please, please, don't call it Hawken!!

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2025, 07:14:57 PM »
So, I have some thoughts on this...  How far has it really drifted?  I would argue it's composed of a very high percentage of original Hawken characteristics.  What really has drifted so much as to it not warrant the name?  Further, this is done ALL the time in the world of high end custom longrifle building.  In fact, it's pretty much the exact same process I've used on all of my other kit offerings!  The only difference is that these other guns don't have the widespread emotional attachment the Hawken does.  Finally, if you're worried about the Hawken name being desecrated, I think that has been done long before me.  If anything, I would argue that we'll be helping to improve it!


Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2025, 07:19:56 PM »
If I needed a rifle AND if I shot right handed AND if I didn't build my own I would buy a Kibler rifle in a heart beat. I own heavy rifles just like the originals. Give me a Kibler. I have handled around 20-30 originals and shot one of them. Give me a Kibler. The Plains Rifle I made was a fantastic shooter and well balanced. The original S. Hawken I shot was way too heavy out front and poorly balanced.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 07:24:35 PM by smylee grouch »

Offline 3thumbs

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2025, 08:00:20 PM »
Hi, Jim; you mentioned what you are doing is done all the time in high-end longrifle building, and there is the problem, as I see it. As I tried to say, but I guess fell short of fully explaining, on most any other style of muzzleloading rifle, one can make any and all modifications and improvements and suffer no ill will. As you are no doubt finding out, some of us crusty old buckskinners (myself turning 74 next month), we've seen too many guns over the years called Hawken that fell short of the looks and feel of what Sam and Jake made. You even mentioned you are not a fan of the guns that the Hawken brothers made, so I'm probably not able to convey what some of us think. When I first saw your update video, I felt the fancier finial on the entry pipe and trigger plate should be made "plainer", as in most of the guns they made. You've made your own butt plate, which again, on most rifles, would be fine, and most younger shooters will probably love it. I know whatever you market is going to be the finest quality we've ever seen, and therefore I should be grateful, but there are a lot of us out here in the world that have been hoping and wishing for the day we'd see a great quality reproduction that was a true replica of an original. GRRW came close years ago with their Jim Bridger commemorative, but even it fell a bit short. I realize you are a businessman and need to market something that will reach hundreds, if not thousands of customers, in order to succeed. What you have shown us in the update will probably meet most folks criteria, I just was hoping for a closer copy of an original rifle, whether it was the Kit Carson or Jim Bridger, or any number of original Hawken rifles in private or public collecitions. Again, this is not bashing your entry, however it comes to market, those of us that buy it will be thrilled at the quality, it looks to be the best we have ever had access to, without getting a custom  gun such as Taylor S., or Selb, etc..and most of those artisans are getting out of the business! Is there any chance, since you have the most modern techniques available, that some minor modifications could be made to satisfy the few of us that are apparently too darn particular about what we want in a Hawken? In other words, market your version as you see fit, but would there be any chance at all for a stock with a 'standard' entry pipe and trigger bar inlet, or even have a stock with no inletting cut for those pieces? I have no experience with CNC, and don't know if this is even feasible from your standpoint. If it is possible, it may surprise you how much demand you could have!

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2025, 08:12:52 PM »
Having made but ONE representation of a "Hawken" rifle I do not think I am an authority on them but I have made a LOT of locks and triggers over the years.I still have plate profiles made by Tom Dawson who copied them right down to the dings,dents and cracks seen in originals and that includes the Parkman rifle which IS a Hawken but marked Hoffman&Campbell on the barrel.Tom called it a "Long,heavy St.Louis rifle".We shot it and he made a precise copy of it and I still have that plate profile in my collection. My personal preference in muzzle loaders are the high end rifles made in the American Northeast like the Whitmore target rifle for General Grant.There are others as well but my memory for names is bad.High end English rifles as seen here from time to time also are a big interest to me and the locks were fancy but not hard to copy if the right tools (machines)are available.The "Hawken" recently shown here that used my lock and triggers far and away surpassed anything that came from the pre "Civil"War Hawken shop or the later one owned by Gemmer.The gun Jim Kibler is offering can be called a representation and is not presented as a COPY of any known Hawken from the 18and whatevers but will be a good hunting rifle and maybe even a match winner.
Bob Roller

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2025, 08:59:36 PM »
I think we're speaking different languages... 

Let me try to explain my perspective more...  I consider Hawken guns to generally be mediocre at best from a design and aesthetic perspective.  Given my past work, I do feel I have a better than average appreciation for such things...  I find the early buttplate and guard used by the Hawkens to be an absolute disaster and couldn't bring myself to use such a thing.  The same goes for the overly heavy barrel, undersized buttstock etc.  I don't worship the Hawken work in any way and will adjust things to suite my preference.  In the end, I feel strongly that the result will be a better functioning, easier handling and more aesthetically pleasing gun that still retains the Hawken flavor.

Again, I have no desire to repeat something I feel is awful.  I believe (know) that many don't have the ability to appreciate these subtleties in design and would rather have something that copies original work.  When I look at a Hawken rifle, my appreciation is solely based on what the gun is and nothing more.  No lore, no stories etc. etc.

Everyone has their preference and that's a good thing.  And if people are still worried about the use of "Hawken", please read my response above.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 09:47:11 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Robby

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2025, 09:05:02 PM »
There seem to be so many subtle differences in the Hawken line of guns I don't see how you could miss. Without your explanation I surely wouldn't have noticed. You seem to be batting a thousand so far, so my bet is on you! Good luck.
Robby
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Offline 3thumbs

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2025, 10:06:48 PM »
Mr. Kibler, I agree with you on one point, we are definitely speaking a different language! You've made it plain that you do not hold the Hawken rifle as made by Jacob and Sam Hawken with anything but contempt for the design and quality. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, so go right ahead and "improve" the heck out of it. I'm sure with your computers and CNC machines you will indeed make a truly magnificent, fine quality rifle better than any that Sam or Jacob could have made. I still hold a glimmer of hope that someday soon, someone with your talents and knowledge of modern machinery, AND a love of the rifles the brothers made, flawed as they may be, will offer a quality reproduction that looks and feels like the original, and not just what you think is better or will sell better. I truly do wish you well with your efforts, it just isn't what I am wanting.

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2025, 10:26:03 PM »
Mr. Kibler, I agree with you on one point, we are definitely speaking a different language! You've made it plain that you do not hold the Hawken rifle as made by Jacob and Sam Hawken with anything but contempt for the design and quality. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, so go right ahead and "improve" the heck out of it. I'm sure with your computers and CNC machines you will indeed make a truly magnificent, fine quality rifle better than any that Sam or Jacob could have made. I still hold a glimmer of hope that someday soon, someone with your talents and knowledge of modern machinery, AND a love of the rifles the brothers made, flawed as they may be, will offer a quality reproduction that looks and feels like the original, and not just what you think is better or will sell better. I truly do wish you well with your efforts, it just isn't what I am wanting.

It has nothing to do with CNC, modern technology etc!!!  Do you realize the kind of work I did before all this kit stuff.  Yes, all by hand.  For me it's about aesthetics.  Something many apparently have no grasp of. 

Follow the link to understand a little more of my background:  https://www.jimkibler.net/jims-custom-work.html




Offline Hawg

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2025, 10:35:58 PM »
Mr. Kibler, I agree with you on one point, we are definitely speaking a different language! You've made it plain that you do not hold the Hawken rifle as made by Jacob and Sam Hawken with anything but contempt for the design and quality. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, so go right ahead and "improve" the heck out of it. I'm sure with your computers and CNC machines you will indeed make a truly magnificent, fine quality rifle better than any that Sam or Jacob could have made. I still hold a glimmer of hope that someday soon, someone with your talents and knowledge of modern machinery, AND a love of the rifles the brothers made, flawed as they may be, will offer a quality reproduction that looks and feels like the original, and not just what you think is better or will sell better. I truly do wish you well with your efforts, it just isn't what I am wanting.

Exactly. When I first heard about the Kibler Hawken I was overjoyed that finally somebody was going to make an authentic copy of a Hawken but my hopes were dashed. It's just another interpretation of what a Hawken should be.

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2025, 10:43:11 PM »
Mr. Kibler, I agree with you on one point, we are definitely speaking a different language! You've made it plain that you do not hold the Hawken rifle as made by Jacob and Sam Hawken with anything but contempt for the design and quality. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, so go right ahead and "improve" the heck out of it. I'm sure with your computers and CNC machines you will indeed make a truly magnificent, fine quality rifle better than any that Sam or Jacob could have made. I still hold a glimmer of hope that someday soon, someone with your talents and knowledge of modern machinery, AND a love of the rifles the brothers made, flawed as they may be, will offer a quality reproduction that looks and feels like the original, and not just what you think is better or will sell better. I truly do wish you well with your efforts, it just isn't what I am wanting.

Exactly. When I first heard about the Kibler Hawken I was overjoyed that finally somebody was going to make an authentic copy of a Hawken but my hopes were dashed. It's just another interpretation of what a Hawken should be.

Yes! My interpretation of what a Hawken should be.  And that's a good think!  I think I'll use that as a tag line.   What a Hawken should be... ;D

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2025, 10:47:50 PM »
And I've refrained from saying this until now...  If you don't like it too bad!  Sorry, but I make the design choices here. ;) 

Based on our success, I think I've been doing okay, and based on the response, I think this latest project will be bigger than any of our other offerings.  So, prepare yourself for seeing lots of these!

Offline smoke and flames

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2025, 11:04:55 PM »
"What a Hawken should be"  I like it
 Keep up the amazing work and kits you are producing.  I have one of your early colonials and love it. Easy to put together with my limited time for self projects and enough left undone to personalize it the way I wanted to. I am lusting over the fowler and trying to find time away from engraving to figure out when to get one.
Keep nailing it Jim

Offline Martin S.

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2025, 12:15:06 AM »
And I've refrained from saying this until now...  If you don't like it too bad!  Sorry, but I make the design choices here. ;) 

Based on our success, I think I've been doing okay, and based on the response, I think this latest project will be bigger than any of our other offerings.  So, prepare yourself for seeing lots of these!

I am very happy to see (and help, quite a bit) you succeed.  I started with CVA kits in the early 1980's, and while I enjoyed putting them together, your kits put them to shame. 

I sincerely hope your version of a Hawken rifle will sell like hotcakes, as that will enable you to make even more kits that are different varieties of historical rifles, and maybe even a pistol.

Thanks for listening, even to the people who don't always agree with you, and thanks for your feedback on their concerns.

Finally thanks to Bree and you and your staff for your most outstanding customer service and superior product quality.

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2025, 12:15:47 AM »
Will THIS Hawken be successful?  Well, look at T\C, Pedersoli, Traditions, etc. They sold\sell thousands and the quality and design is not all that close to an original.

Besides, who really want's to carry a 12-lb rifle around in the woods?

BTW, Jim's hand done rifles are beautiful.

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2025, 12:30:45 AM »
Mr. Kibler, I agree with you on one point, we are definitely speaking a different language! You've made it plain that you do not hold the Hawken rifle as made by Jacob and Sam Hawken with anything but contempt for the design and quality. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, so go right ahead and "improve" the heck out of it. I'm sure with your computers and CNC machines you will indeed make a truly magnificent, fine quality rifle better than any that Sam or Jacob could have made. I still hold a glimmer of hope that someday soon, someone with your talents and knowledge of modern machinery, AND a love of the rifles the brothers made, flawed as they may be, will offer a quality reproduction that looks and feels like the original, and not just what you think is better or will sell better. I truly do wish you well with your efforts, it just isn't what I am wanting.

Exactly. When I first heard about the Kibler Hawken I was overjoyed that finally somebody was going to make an authentic copy of a Hawken but my hopes were dashed. It's just another interpretation of what a Hawken should be.

Just goes to prove “it ain’t always all about you’”.
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Offline foresterdj

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2025, 12:51:52 AM »
I figure the moderator can lock this thread anytime soon. Haven't we all gleaned enough from it?

Offline Hawg

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2025, 01:27:23 AM »
And I've refrained from saying this until now...  If you don't like it too bad!  Sorry, but I make the design choices here. ;) 

Based on our success, I think I've been doing okay, and based on the response, I think this latest project will be bigger than any of our other offerings.  So, prepare yourself for seeing lots of these!

I wish you all the success in the world with it. I realize I'm in a minority wanting an authentic copy but I have one that's close enough for me so I'm happy.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Kibler Hawken Rifle Update Video
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2025, 02:09:46 AM »
I figure the moderator can lock this thread anytime soon. Haven't we all gleaned enough from it?

Let’s see if this is an adequate summary:
Jim Kibler is debuting a percussion half stock rifle entitled Hawken.
Many who commented are thrilled.  A subset of those who are thrilled take comments that are not entirely praise, quite personally.
Some wish it better represented one of their dream original Hawken rifles. A subset of those who had other hopes for this offering are also passionate in their views.
Jim Kibler explains his design aesthetic and goals.

On many threads it’s never enough, it seems. Nothing I’ve read has broken any rules.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2025, 04:15:05 AM by rich pierce »
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