Author Topic: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?  (Read 7199 times)

Offline G. Elsenbeck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« on: January 14, 2010, 04:40:24 AM »
Not sure if this is the right place so if it must be moved, so be it.  While I was surfing the net today I came across a couple of pictures of a couple of drawings by R. Grider of engraved powder horns.  I also recall seeing one or two that were referenced in a couple of other horn books I have.  I looked at the NYS museum website, but only found references to his many volumes of drawings.  As far as getting in touch with the Museum to get special permission to view, I will try to do that later in the year.
My question is does anyone know if there was a separate publishing of Grider's drawings of engraved powder horns? 
Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Offline Randy Hedden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • American Mountain Men #1393
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 07:16:59 AM »
If these are the drawings that I am thinking of the museum does not allow anyone to see them because someone is already writing a book and using the drawings.  I am thinking this R. Grider is the uncle or great uncle of a member of the ALR and he couldn't even get permission to view the drawing collection.  If these are the right drawings maybe Rich Pierce will have some more information. 

Or then again, I might be all wet,

Randy Hedden
American Mountain Men #1393

Offline G. Elsenbeck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 05:21:44 PM »
Hmmm, Randy you may be right.  Isn't that what the HCH is doing by putting together the Hartley Project?
Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Offline Randy Hedden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • American Mountain Men #1393
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 07:24:08 PM »
Hmmm, Randy you may be right.  Isn't that what the HCH is doing by putting together the Hartley Project?
Gary

I have no idea what the HCH Hartley project is.  Apparently I wasn't a member when they started the project and in the Horn Book now when they say anything about the project they seem to assume that all the newer members know all about it.

I may be thinking about an entirely different set of powder horn drawings?

Randy
American Mountain Men #1393

Offline Beaverman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 07:55:03 PM »
Gary, can you tell me more of the Hartley project? first I've heard of it

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19547
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 09:09:13 PM »
Robert M. Hartley was my great uncle (married to my great Aunt Fannie).  He lived near Amsterdam in NY state.  He was a gentleman farmer with means to pursue hobbies most of his adult life. He was a tolerable archeologist and historian, and many of his collected Revolutionary and Civil War buttons and Native American artifacts are in the Kateri Tekakwitha museum in Fonda NY.  In the 1930's he began to document French and Indian War to Revolutionary War powder horns of the Mohawk Valley, by making drawings of them as though they were unwrapped, sort of like a flat map of the globe.

Those drawings (more than 30) are in the basement of the library in St. Johnsville, NY.  John Proud and others became aware of them and John went and took high quality photos of them a few years ago.  I heard of it and talked at length with John about Uncle Rob as he was described by my father.  John and the "horners" are putting together a book of these drawings.

Uncle Rob passed away long before Aunt Fannie.  When she died in about 1960, my grandfather was the executor of the estate, and as a young lad or 7 years old, I went with him to inventory and prepare the goods that were not passed on to family, for auction.  In the attic I found boxes of Native American artifacts- all the low quality stuff that didn't make it into the nuseum collections- and a few copies of his drawings of powder horns. I still have about a dozen of those copies.

4 years ago I went back to the museum and took some pictures of the drawings Uncle Rob made, but the lady there would not let me take them out because "somebody already did that" (John Proud).  It was still great to see them all and attempt to hurriedly take pictures through the glass cases, with bad flourescent light glaring off the glass.

Here are a few examples.







Here is a scan of one of the copies I own, from Uncle Rob's attic.  The copies were in black and white.


I may be biased but I encourage you all to think about getting this book when it comes out, as the whereabouts of the vast majority of these documented horns is unknown and they have not been photographed.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 09:13:29 PM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Beaverman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 09:48:15 PM »
Rich, thanks so much for the reply, man what a great story and archive of history! does anybody know if Proud is close to completion on this book? put my name on the list!

Offline G. Elsenbeck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 09:50:00 PM »
Rich, thank you much for the info and, my goodness, and a great family history.
Thanks for sharing.
Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

Offline Randy Hedden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • American Mountain Men #1393
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 12:02:00 AM »
Well. like I said it might be an entirely different series of drawings.

Thanks Rich,

Randy Hedden
American Mountain Men #1393

Offline John Proud

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 06:33:43 AM »
Grider's portfolio of powder horn drawings are in the collection of the New-York Historic Society in NYC. There are approximately 550 drawings which I have a listing of. Unfortunately the portfolio was cataloged from a art perspective. It lists the name and date on the horn, if present. Beyond that only the colors used and that sort of description. Not to helpful to us horn workers. I am still happy to have it. The potfolio has been at the Society since the early 1900, donated by the person who purchased it from Grider shortly before his death.

I made a presentation to the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) several years ago on Grider, a part of which was a comparison of his drawings against photographs of the original horns. In order to that analysis, I was graciously provided access to the Grider portfolio. It is a sight to behold!! I focused on about 20 drawings, spending most of a day with them. To do justice to the entire collection would probably take a week of steady work.

The HCH is working on the publication of Robert Hartley's horn drawings, which number about 40. Rich gave a good description of Robert Hartley He and Grider were contemporaries, but Grider was a much older. However, Hartley showed Grider the powder horn that got Grider going on his powder horn portfolio. If you look in Guthman's book, it is illustrated as the (Ho)wland or (Ro)wland horn since the name is incomplete due to the horn being shortened. Hartley knew it was the Rowland horn, since Hartley had owned it since he was nine! He was a collector for sure.

The Hartley book is at the first draft stage with publication planned for later this spring. It will have high resolution images of all the known Hartley drawings along with photograph of several of the original horn and I biography of Robert Hartley. The HCH has had very preliminary discussions on a project to publish the Grider portfolio as a future project.   

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19547
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 07:17:03 AM »
Wonderful to have you at ALR, John! Welcome!
Andover, Vermont

Offline G. Elsenbeck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
Re: Book of drawings of Engraved powder horns?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 07:25:23 AM »
John, thank you for your insight on the Grider portfolio.  I didn't realize there were close to 550 drawings!
Thanks for sharing.
Gary
Journeyman in the Honourable Company of Horners (HCH) and a member in the Contemporary Longrifle Association (CLA)

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."