Rice 50 cal question

[hortonstn]

I shoot 80 fff schutzen out of my rice 50 cal Flintlock with .20 teflon at our 60 yard bench match
I've noticed after fireing  about 6 inches down the barrel there is a buildup that takes a little scrubbing to clean out. I run a damp patch down the bore after each shot.
Question is, is this from a choke in the barrel or a sign of to much powder not being burnt
Barrel is 1-66 twist 44 inches long or is this normal?
Thanks

[MuskratMike]

I don't have a proven answer, but I only use 75 grains of 3F in my .54 caliber which on a chronograph equates to about 92 grains of 2F for the same velocity. Maybe drop down the charge a bit and see if that helps.

[Daryl]

ALL of that powder would be burned in a 30" .50 bl. let alone a 44". The 44" bl. just allows it's gasses to expand for a longer period of time, thus higher
velocity from the longer barrel.
While I do not use FFF in my Rice .50 with a 44" bl. I do use up to 100gr. Schutzen 2F powder. I also use a snug load, but one that is lubricated with a water based lube. There is
no buildup at any location and no wiping is necessary during a day's shooting.
Since you are using a teflon patch without lube, I suspect your barrel is 6" too long for the combination you are using. What is happening there, I really don't know. The extra
fouling is sticking to something, it sounds like.

[smylee grouch]

Agreed, that powder is a flash burn and would be consumed long before the ball exits the bore. I shot a lot of TEFLON patch in my 52 cal Light Bench 40 some inch barrel never had that happen. I shot 100 plus grains of 2f Swiss and run a damp patch down between shots when using TEFLON.

[hudson]

When using Teflon I have always used lube with no problem. The last few years I have been using army duct canvas. Never a problem and never clean during a match. Recently with the shortage I was forced to go from Goex to Schutzen I experienced the problem you described.

[hortonstn]

Hudson
What lube did you use on teflon?

[Daryl]

Further, after changing from GOEX to Schutzen powder, I found I have to increase the charge to get the same accuracy as I got with GOEX.
This "occurred" in both .69 and .50, but not the .36 - go figure.

[smylee grouch]

I never used an extra lube when using TEFLON but some guys would give  it a very light spray of plain water .

[hudson]

hortonstn with Teflon and army duct canvas I use 20/80 Ballistol/water; just one rifle likes 50/50 mix. Farley wet not dripping. Usually soak a pile for a while then lightly press out the excess. Of late I have been using a small spray bottle giving both sided of the patch a good shot when loading were time is not important. I should add the green Teflon not the light blue which is water soluble. In the past I have used coconut oil you can use too much of that stuff.

[Darkhorse]

If that buildup gets too hard to scrub out soak a patch in brake cleaner to clean it out. Doesn't hurt anything and will clean most buildups right out.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The science of the patched round ball is quite simple.  The patch must be of a tough natural fibre and thick enough to carry sufficient solvent (lube) to remove ALL of the fouling from the previous shot, upon loading the second, as well as being able to fill the rifling with some compression right to the bottom of the grooves.  Such a patch will effectively remove ALL of the fouling right down to the powder charge and grip the lead ball, and not allow gas cutting.  With this patch, one can enjoy shooting black powder rifles all day without ever having to wipe out dry crusty areas.  In fact, I have found that the first load in a clean barrel, is the most difficult to load.

[Jeff Murray]

Black powder generates a fair amount of unburned waste material during ignition.  I don't remember the percentage by weight but it is noticeable.  It is also very hot exiting the barrel.  It is possible that some of that material is sticking to the barrel close to the muzzle since there is no lube to help it "slide out".  Maybe a comparison test with dry and lubed patches would give you the answer you need.  This is my most scientific comment of the day.  Good luck with that.

[smallpatch]

What Taylor said!

[recurve]

I use mutton  tallow and before I load the first shot I wipe the bore with a lubed patch the tallow seems to help keep the fouling soft & from sticking to the bore. also helps with the first patch ball loading , not feeling as hard to seat (and the fallowing loading seems to get easier to load/push down the barrel)
my patching is dipped in melted tallow extra squeezed out . I'm able to shoot a long time out wiping

[Daryl]

Black powder generates a fair amount of unburned waste material during ignition.  I don't remember the percentage by weight but it is noticeable.  It is also very hot exiting the barrel.  It is possible that some of that material is sticking to the barrel close to the muzzle since there is no lube to help it "slide out".  Maybe a comparison test with dry and lubed patches would give you the answer you need.  This is my most scientific comment of the day.  Good luck with that.

Fully 57% of a BP charge results in particulate fouling. This is the black that is on the snow or on a white sheet on the ground in front of the gun after firing. It is already burned and will not re-ignite. It is not unburned powder as once was thought - AND described.
"Some" of that solid waste is deposited onto the bore's walls as particulate fouling, while the ball is ejected from the bore. Some follows it out and those are the red hot particulate fouling you see being ejected.

[Scota4570]

OP sounds like the barrel has some roughness that is catching the fouling.  The first thing I's try is to work it over with scochbrite and Semichrome polish. 

I do not think it has anything to do with the barrel brand.  I have found that a lead lapping a barrel removes the manufacturing tool marks and make the hole all one size.  Those two things have made a dramatic difference in accuracy and reduces the need to swab the bore between shots to zero.  No barrel maker I am aware of has the time to lead lap ML barrels today.

I have modern barrels that are lapped and properly made.  They shoot amazingly well.  They also cost about 3X as much as  a typical ML barrel.  I suspect that most ML shooters would not pay for high quality barrel. 

Back to cut rifled ML barrels.  I do not think that the grooves are a problem as far as catching fouling.  The tool marks run front to back.  This is good.  The tops of the lands typically show annular tool marks from drilling or reaming to fast with a poorly sharpened reamer.  That could be fixed fast an easy.  Colt used a process call "ballizing" on their old python barrels.  A highly polished carbide sphere was pushed through the bore to put a coin finish on the lands and obliterate the drill/ream marks.  The same thing could be done on a ML barrel. 

[Daryl]

Pac-Nor used to lead-lap their barrels.

[Scota4570]

Yes, those were great barrels.  I shot my best bench rest group with one.  Kreiger also laps barrels. 

[Leatherbark]

Isn't it Rice that pulls a carbide doo-hickey through the bore after it is rifled to smooth out any machining/chatter thingys?

Bob

[Daryl]

I've heard that as well, Bob. I'd think that might create a flashing on the top corner of the lands?

[Scota4570]

The Rice barrels I have examined with a a scope had the typical drill type marks on the tops of the lands.   

[rich pierce]

The Rice barrels I have examined with a a scope had the typical drill type marks on the tops of the lands.

Those are reamer marks, found atop the lands of every barrel that hasn’t been lapped or re-cut including the lands. They don’t impact loading or accuracy, though lapping can make a barrel more consistent in diameter if there are any irregularities. There seldom are any irregularities in a new barrel. If present, they are easily felt as loose of tight spots when running a lubed close fitting patch through the bore.

[Daryl]

I've been shooting my .69 since 1986- likely close to or maybe over 10,000 shots. You can still see reamer marks on the tops of the lands.
They were never felt, not did they hold or build up fouling. For many years though, I had to use  12 ounce denim patch which I measured at
.030" with the compressed calipers or .025" with my micrometer. It is only in the past 4 years or so, have I been able to use the loose load of
a .682" ball and .021" patch. The bore is a true .690" land to land. Also visual is the rod rub/wear in each groove and especially beside the land,
 at the 10 o'clock position.

[Bob Roller]

Bill Large would sometimes concave the lands in a barrel and it looked good and the scoped 58 I shot at 399 yards was one of these and the long shots proved it worked.He did this by hand and it is easily seen.Does any maker today do that or are they aware of such a modification
Bob Roller.

[rich pierce]

Bill Large would sometimes concave the lands in a barrel and it looked good and the scoped 58 I shot at 399 yards was one of these and the long shots proved it worked.He did this by hand and it is easily seen.Does any maker today do that or are they aware of such a modification
Bob Roller.

The only way I know to concave the lands is to do it with a freshing stick with a domed cutter for the lands with a radius less than that of the bore. Very little work is required once the stick and cutter are set up.