Fill grain on walnut English fowler?

[Lone Wolf]

Would the grain have been filled on an early to mid 1700s English fowler?  Howbout a British style fowler made in the colonies?

[smart dog]

Hi,
I have never read any detailed description of how stocks on British guns were finished in the 18th century.    We do have information about furniture and cabinet makers. A common practice was to rub the surface vigorously with linseed oil and a flat pumice stone to create a slurry.  The slurry was then wiped or scraped off.  The linseed oil would not dry so the slurry was soft unlike if you do the same today but use a modern finish that dries quickly.  Using modern finishes, you have to sand off the dried crust, which is no problem.  We know that varnishes, probably linseed oil based, were used but not much beyond that until well into the 19th century.  However, when you look at originals, you never see any open grain.  The surface is smooth, the grain is filled, and the finish has a satin to glossy look.  No dull "in the wood" oil finishes that some modern builders use.  Therefore, they either filled the grain with a filler or sealer, or they applied enough varnish to fill the grain completely.  That is true even for military and trade guns.    Here are examples of 2 modest quality English fowlers and 2 military guns.
   













Keep in mind they did have sandpaper in the 18th century.  It was usually made with crushed glass and they had abrasive powders and rushes for sanding and smoothing.  They were not restricted to scraping only.   

dave

[okawbow]

Artist’s were using shellac to seal paintings by the 17th century. Violin makers were using shellac as a ground in the 18th century. Gunmakers May have also used it to seal grain at that time, and certainly some used in in the 18th century.
I dissolve ruby shellac flakes in alcohol and use a soft varnish brush to apply several coats as a base to an oil varnish. It dries very fast and one can apply several coats a day. I fine sand or rub down with a 3m pad between coats. Seals the pores and prevents the end grain from turning dark.

[Jim Kibler]

Unless walnut is tight grained, I find open pores on a fowling piece to look pretty bad.  They kind of sparkle in the light and just don't look good in my view. 

Jim

[Snowmoon]

Unless walnut is tight grained, I find open pores on a fowling piece to look pretty bad.  The kind of sparkle in the light and just don't look good in my view. 

Jim

Hi Jim, I've been meaning to ask about the grain filler product(s) that you like. Perhaps something clear to take the color of stain/finish? My goal is to come out looking glossy and new instead of aged. Very interested in your current thoughts or recommendations as the Kibler crew is working on my piece of English Walnut!

[smylee grouch]

On my last American Black Walnut stocked rifle which had a hard dense grain, I got it down to 320 or 400 then started with Danish oil applications using Scotch Bright pads. About 24 hours between applications with a rub down of the stock with a clean dry pad before each new Danish Oil application. IIRC it was 10-12 times and looked good to this one eyed unprofesional.

[Jim Kibler]

Unless walnut is tight grained, I find open pores on a fowling piece to look pretty bad.  The kind of sparkle in the light and just don't look good in my view. 

Jim

Hi Jim, I've been meaning to ask about the grain filler product(s) that you like. Perhaps something clear to take the color of stain/finish? My goal is to come out looking glossy and new instead of aged. Very interested in your current thoughts or recommendations as the Kibler crew is working on my piece of English Walnut!

I like to use a paste grain filler.  In the past I've used Constantines products.  Usually their black color.  For a long while they quit selling it, but I see that they offer it now.  I think we may try to start re-selling this in smaller volumes.

[Scota4570]

One can buy paste wood grain filler.  Not wood putty for cracks.  It is made to fill the grain pores.  Be sure and get a darker color than the wood.  Rub it into the grain.  Wipe off the excess.  Let mostly dry.  Cut the haze off the surface with sandpaper or scotchbrite. Finish as normal. This step will cut down your finish coats to only a few instead of many.  It is a lot easier and faster than making sanding sludge and working it into the grain with dilute finish. 

Funny, Jim and I were typing at the same time. 

Added:  I find that the filler gels up after opening very quickly.  Adding a blast of argon before I close the lid helps a lot. 

[Lone Wolf]

Would they have used a separate pore filling product in the old days, or would the grain have been filled by the finishing process of applying layers of varnish/oil?

[AZshot]

I just filled the walnut grain on my Kibler over Christmas, using one traditional way - just using the Chambers Oil finish, wiping off against the grain.
 I'll say it goes slow.  After about 5 cycles of 24 hrs, I changed to doing a little light sanding and using the slurry to fill.  It was faster, but I still ended up doing about 10 coats.  I'll definately try any filler you can buy, next time.

[Snowmoon]

Thanks, Jim and Scota! I checked Constantines and saw their Woodperfect grain filler offered in oak, red mahogany, and white. Kinda confusing! Not sure whether my stain and oil varnish would bring any of the choices in line with the rest of the wood or not. Anyone have experience with one that dries clear like Aqua Coat?

[Scota4570]

The Filler I used dried up and got tossed.  The paint store I buy it from has no idea what I am asking about.  It seems like most people I deal with today are clueless.  That's a rant for another day............

I have never used Constantines, if Jim uses Constantines I am sure it works great. 

Based on  my experience if the filler was lighter than the wood I'd change that.  I have leather dye handy, I'd add some to the filler.  I have also used things like soot and black iron oxide to darken fillers. 

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here is a good way.  Do any staining you desire then apply finish with 220 grit sandpaper.  Sand the finish and wood creating a thick slurry on the surface.



Then let it dry overnight and sand the crust off with 320 grit paper.  I usually only need to do this once but some folks do it twice.  Then if the staining lightened more than you desire, darken it with a little more stain because the finish is only in the pores of the wood not built up on the surface so the wood will still accept color. Then apply finish as you normally would to build up the sheen you desire.

Here are examples done that way.




















dave

[Daryl]

Yeah- I know it's a rifle, but here's an 1852 or 53 Joseph Lang 16 bore, as finished then.
The wood grain is perfectly filled still & appears to be shellac or varnish as the surface is a myriad of tiny cracks.

[Snowmoon]

These are some great suggestions, thanks! I hope Lone Wolf finds success.

[Lone Wolf]

Thanks for all the information.  Very helpful.  I will try smart dog's method since it doesn't require the procurement of any products I don't already have.

[Lone Wolf]

Then let it dry overnight and sand the crust off with 320 grit paper.  I usually only need to do this once but some folks do it twice.  Then if the staining lightened more than you desire, darken it with a little more stain because the finish is only in the pores of the wood not built up on the surface so the wood will still accept color. Then apply finish as you normally would to build up the sheen you desire.

Dave, if the sanding lightens the wood and additional stain is applied at that point, does this affect the yellow dye if yellow dye was applied before the stain?  In other words, would you also need to reapply the dye, or just stain?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Sure, you can use the yellow again if needed.  Moreover, the water soluble dyes also dissolve in alcohol.  If water base dye is not penetrating after filling the grain, try mixing the dye in alcohol for touching up. Finally, lone wolf, you can always tint the finish top coats.  On many of my guns, coloring the stock is not finished until the last coat of finish.  That is because every stick of wood is unique and I want a specific color in the end so I often have to work at it.  We rarely think about the art of stock finishing because we want an easy rote formula that gives us the same results every time.  Fat chance that will happen.  In England, stock finishers were a separate trade and likely experts at it.   

dave

[Lone Wolf]

Thanks again Smart Dog. And believe me, my problem is overthinking things. 

[Snowmoon]

Don't mind me snooping for overthinking fuel  Thanks again, Dave.