What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like

[Daniel Coats]

I'm hoping for a respectful exchange including pictures of either a single detail or an entire rifle. I built several during the Hawken craze of the 1980s and 1990s from planks and even forged some of the hardware. Recently there's been a strong reaction to the upcoming Kibler kit so here's your chance to show what you're talking about. Original or Contemporary you've got the floor.

[treed]

Only one I ever got to handle. Drawings made in 1969 show a 34 in barrel, 1 1/16, 50 cal, 1/48 twist, coned about 4 in from muzzle. Checkering at wrist, straight hook breech, English style breechplug not a snail, has a silver star inletted possibly to disguise a plug. Tail of trigger plate goes to a point, tang is stepped down, no half cock notch. Marked J&S Hawken. Belongs to a friend. i'll see if I can find my pics

[Steeltrap]

[Hawg]

[rich pierce]

Couple nice early ones there!

[Steeltrap]

Interesting to note that on the pic in post #3 vs #4 that the same style of TG is used. However, the placement of the barrel wedges on each one is much different.

[Steeltrap]

Now, I know this isn't an exact form of measuring, but it does give some idea. So, I took the two pic's and cut out each one of the TG's. Then I moved that cutout under the wedge keys to give some idea of placement.

You can see in the upper pic (fancy one) that the wedge keys are about the same distance apart as the length of the TG.

On the second pic, you can see where the wedge keys are placed closer together than the TG on that model.

[rich pierce]

I like the early ones that precede the sort of standard look. Clearly their parts supplies varied a lot and they took what was available in regards to patent breeches and guards. Or took advantage of the variety available. I’ve seen at least 2 with the fancy standing breeches, “double cup” engraved design and double set triggers that did not have the long trigger plate extending fore and aft with a guard ccrewed to it.

[Jim Kibler]

What parts do you think they were purchasing versus making?  Good topic and discussion!

[rich pierce]

What parts do you think they were purchasing versus making?  Good topic and discussion!

From the variability I see, it seems that early on, in the J&S Hawken years they were buying all patent breeches, trigger guards, some triggers, possibly even barrels (perhaps blanks that they rifled).  I base this on the variability and especially engraved guards and breeches in some cases. My reasoning is as follows:  other makers who supplied their own parts used the same patterns on so many guns. Different era, but consider the JP Beck guard and buttplate designs. Pretty much uniform. There are many other examples.

[Jim Kibler]

And of course locks.  Given the period I think you can count on barrels being purchased.

[Jim Kibler]

Okay, a question.  Suppose these guns were made in New England during the 1840's by some run of the mill gunsmith.  What would make them special?  Would we look at them even close to the same way we look at them currently?

[rich pierce]

Okay, a question.  Suppose these guns were made in New England during the 1840's by some run of the mill gunsmith.  What would make them special?  Would we look at them even close to the same way we look at them currently?

“Heroes” used them in the fur trade and western expansion. They were designed to withstand hard use. Chosen by many top fur trade leaders and Santa Fe traders and scouts for wagon trains. Associated with exploration, danger, romance.  Jim Bridger. James Clyman. Sublette brothers. Many others.

Just as the lever action guns are hailed as “the guns that won the west” the Hawken rifles have become mythologized. Trade guns used in much higher numbers - 5 to 10 to one - don’t sell.

[stan57]

Buffler on lid = cool

[recurve]

look up "Herb " here he has handled more original Hawkens than probably anyone alive

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58646.msg586604#msg586604

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54383.msg544387#msg544387

[bama]

I had the opportunity to do some restoration work on a few period big bore half stock guns that would be contemporary to the Hawken rifles. They were well made and I am sure had history in the west and probably in the mountains. Even though they probably shot buffalo's they never obtained the mystic that the Hawken rifles have enjoyed.

There really is a good bit of variation in the Hawken Rifle, so to say what is right or not right in my opinion would be difficult to do. I admaire Jim's bravery in his willingness to produce this rifle and wish him much sucess.

[Jim Kibler]

When you take away all the heroes, myths and legends, what makes them special looking at it only as a bunch of wood and metal pieces?

[oldtravler61]

   I'm no expert on the Hawken. But of the 15 or so originals I've seen. None of them were identical. The basic outline yes to a point but they all had differences. I believe they were better made than some of the other plains rifles. Maybe that was what gave them there significant s historically. JMHO

[45dash100]

When you take away all the heroes, myths and legends, what makes them special looking at it only as a bunch of wood and metal pieces?

They're extremely durable, robust, and reliable compared to a lot of the other offerings.  You could say they're unrefined, but purpose built.  Kind of like comparing a heavy military musket to a hunting rifle.  Function in the absolute worst circumstances over form.  Fleet grade F350 vs consumer F150 with the bells and whistles.

Not at all easy to try and make an economically feasible "Hawken" that stands up to why it was desirable in the first place.  Not a lot of people who need to go tramping off alone or with minimal support into barely explored dangerous country anymore.   They want to go the range and plink, or safely into the woods for a few days to hunt.

I think if you want to answer your question, you need to figure out why the "Heroes" picked a Hawken over something else.  I think they really valued durability over almost everything else.  They needed a rifle that could take a fall from the ground, or from a horse. Something that could survive a fight if you had to use your gun as a club.  I've heard they were reliable.  Maybe they were also very good at tuning locks.  That's probably some speculation, and half remembered snippets from things I've read.  There are sources of this information out there though, might take a bit of digging.

Good luck!  You've got a lot of hard choices to make, and it will be quite difficult to balance historical accuracy, myth, and appeal vs paying employees.

ETA:  I've got 3 of your guns right now, and one of the things I like most about them, is knowing they're accurate to the period, and so much different from what I expected.  Longrifles make a lot more sense when you pick one of yours up and aim down the sights. 

[Hawg]

When you take away all the heroes, myths and legends, what makes them special looking at it only as a bunch of wood and metal pieces?

I don't look at it with the heroes and myths in mind. Hawken rifles were considered the best and everybody wanted one not just the big names. Hawken only made about 1000 rifles total. Of course they cost more. A Hawken would set you back about 25.00 and a flintlock about 15.00. I haven't seen a price list for contemporary builders like Dimick but I would assume they were between the two. They were blacksmiths and gunsmiths. Rifles were a sideline. They made traps and other trapping gear. Most of their gun repair was broken stocks. The thin wristed flintlock stocks didn't hold up well in the mountains. Early on they bought almost everything except stocks including barrels. I've seen some with Golcher locks. So for me it's not about the heroes and legends. It's the moving that far away from the original design and calling it a Hawken. Yeah they changed some stuff over the years but the basic design was the same. This a Dimick.

[CooleyS]

The old adage that beauty is in the eye of the beholder holds true when it comes to my likes and dislikes of various rifle schools of the 18th and 19th centuries. There are particular rifles that I find more attractive than others for every builder or school I've seen, including Hawken rifles. I find myself drawn to the earlier work of Jacob and Samuel Hawken for whatever reason. It's true that the mystic and lore surrounding Hawken rifles is probably what got me hooked at a young age. But as time went on and I learned more about the rifles and gained an appreciation for what I believe they were meant to be; a heavy duty rifle that was carried a-horseback that could shoot big game at the longer distances of the plains. As for what makes a Hawken a Hawken, I am not certain there is one or two defining attributes that I could point to...heavy barreled? Most were but here is a rifle at Jim Gordon's that appears to be a smaller sized plains rifle complete with a lighter weight barrel and a really neat adjustable rear sight. It's unlike any other Hawken I've seen, including the squirrel or sporter rifles made for local trade.





As seen below, there are differences in stock design, trigger guard design, breech design and on and on, so to say that any particular feature is what defines a Hawken as a Hawken is almost impossible. But when I look at each of these rifles I see a Hawken despite all there individuality.



In the end, I am just drawn to what I like when I see a particular rifle, Hawken rifles included. I recently completed what I think of, and call, a J&S Hawken. However, it's not a bench copy of any one J&S Hawken rifle and there aspects of the rifle were just what I wanted to make, like a 1"-7/8" tapered barrel and fancy walnut. That barrel would not be on what we think of as the classic Hawken rifle, but is sure is easier to carry and a lot more fun to shoot off-hand! So should I call this rifle a J&S Hawken? Is the Kibler rifle a Hawken? When I look at each I instantly see a Hawken, despite maybe not being what each of us would conjure up as the "classic" Hawken. In looking at all the differences in Hawken rifles over time, it's likely that some rifles were just made to sell over the counter and others were custom ordered by the customer to meet what they wanted, just like how we buy new vehicles today.



-Steve

[Scota4570]

Hawken in St. Louis was a gun shop.  They made many different rifles.  They did not all look like this:
 

Yet they were all "Hawken Rifles".  The one in the picture is a representative example of the steriotype rifle they made.  I am not sure it was even the predominate model they made. A resident Hawken expert here,  has been  conspicuously silent on this subject.  I'd love to hear his opinion. 

I have not bought from the Hawken Shot in Washington state.  I have no opinion on the quality of their parts set.  The rifle does look to be similar to my effort. 

I did buy a parts set from a Hawken expert that has passed on.  Unfortunately the stock and breech plug were not usable.  The second stock was also not usable.  I gave up and built form a plank and machined a casting for the breech plug myself.  In the process of trying to make the stock work I ruined the lockplate and hammer.   The experience reminded me of a certain parts bundler that makes runs or sketchy castings and horrible precarve stocks for historic guns. Both experiences were very bad.  I build guns to have fun not to curse unnecessary problems or throw money away on unusable parts. 

Whether a guy likes the styling details of Kibler's offering I am confident it will be a high quality rifle that CAN be assembled and will function correctly.  That is more important to me than minor styling details. 

IF a guy wants a big clunky rifle that is steriotype Hawken then get the Hawken shop kit?   

[Martin S.]

I would highly encourage anyone with an interest in Hawken rifles to attend the Hawken Classic in St. Louis May 16-18, 2025.

You will have the opportunity to see and study real, authentic, Hawken rifles, and many quality reproductions made by fine people like Bob Browner and others.  Bob does not use the internet, but he is one of the most knowledgeable Hawken enthusiasts alive today.

https://www.gemmermuzzleloadingclub.com/hawken-classic/



There are several YouTube videos of Bob speaking at previous Hawken Classics, you can search for them.

[MuskratMike]

Here is the one that was just written about in the January issue of Muzzle Blasts. Hope everyone liked the article as not a day goes by I don't miss my good friend.
It is a Sharon Rifle & Barrel Company's version of a Hawken in 54 caliber. The barrel is a straight 1-inch diameter measuring 34 3/4 inches from muzzle to face of the breech plug. It carries it's original L&R lock, has iron hardware and a pewter nose cap. It measures 52-inches in overall length and has a 13 1/2 inch L.O.P. It weighs a hefty 9 1/2 pounds. The Sharon Rifle & Barrel company started out in 1973 and started making Hawken kits in very early 1976. By July they were going out of business and were done by 1980. I believe their barrel making operations were sold to Joe Williams in Springfield, Oregon and became the Oregon barrel Company but I am not positive about that. The last picture is from Sharon's advertising, not of this gun.

[HSmithTX]

Someone on here mentioned the resemblance of Hawken rifles to English sporting rifles of the time and I think it's a very valid observation,  I think that was probably at least part of the draw for the Hawken at the time.  It's also part of the draw for me now,  I think they are great looking rifles.  I need to finish the one I built and post some pictures, 36" 58 cal 1" barrel and it's sub 9 pounds.