Author Topic: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like  (Read 5422 times)

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2025, 03:40:27 AM »
I am not as well read as most of you but I have read some and remembered a little, so a thought has come to me. I remember an account from the
Lewis and Clark expedition where a grizzly was encountered and the military .54 rifles were wholly inadequate for the job, taking many hits to finally kill the beast. Which makes sense considering the military used light charges of powder such as 60 grains of 3fg in the .58 muskets and the powder was perhaps inferior to boot.
So anyone considering a trapping expedition would have known this and the Hawken Brothers got a jump on the market by designing and building a rifle that could shoot a much more powerful load and also had the weight to make it shootable. Word coming back from the field would have been full of stories, true or not, about how well the Hawken rifles killed the hard to kill.
Truth, lies and gossip took over from here and now you have the roots of legend.
Building on this, in truth the rifles did not disappoint.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Online Daniel Coats

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2025, 03:44:38 AM »
What about stock color on some original Hawken rifles. I remember a drawing from DGW more than 50 years ago that described it as a buckskin color. About 20 years ago I examined 2 original Hawken rifles that had been owned by Mormon pioneers. I didn't think much of it at the time but looking back they indeed did have a buckskin color. Those are the only ones of that color I can recall but I saw two on the same day.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2025, 04:40:15 AM »


Photo of photo I took in Cody of IIRC some of  Dr. Ken Leonard,s S. Hawken rifles that were on loan to the museum and later bought by Bill Ruger and donated to the museum. Dr. Leonard and I were both members of a gun collectors assn. He had many more than those shown.

Online CooleyS

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2025, 05:15:56 AM »
As for colors on originals…Here is a rifle that has been in my family since it was purchased in St. Louis in 1836 or ‘37. I’m not claiming it to be a Hawken and it not stamped or marked (although Bob Browner does believe that it was made in the Hawken brothers shop). Anyhow, it is a plains rifle and it was purchased in St. Louis at the time Hawken’s were being made there. I’d have to think that regardless of who made this rifle, it would have been finished similarly to others if the area and time. This rifle shows heavy use and there isn’t a trace of finish on this rifle anywhere. Not under the barrel, not in the lock inlet…nowhere.  And yet it has that buckskin color because there isn’t any color or finish on the wood. This is just color from being handled and used.
Also, notice the darkened area on the forestock. When I sit in a saddle and balance this rifle across my legs, this wear point matches up with where it would have been carried in a saddle and rubbed against the leather of the horn.
Both the color and wear marks are not direct evidence for sure, but interesting nonetheless.



-Steve

Offline Scota4570

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2025, 06:15:12 AM »
I am not nearly as knowledgeable as some here..................

Two famous originals have  apparent finish of  a varnish that had the color in the finish itself.  The places that the finish has worn off are buckskin color.  Not sure how common that finish was.  All hand made objects have variations.  The Teddy Roosevelt  Hawken looks like walnut with an oil or varnish finish to me. 


https://live.staticflickr.com/4050/4485184473_16757dfd06_b.jpg

https://helenair.com/jim-bridger-s-hawken-rifle/image_3814d4b4-b249-55b4-ae75-d863ffda8d44.html

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024/05/09/buy-teddy-roosevelt-big-bore-hawken-rifle-rias-premier-auction/
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 06:24:11 AM by Scota4570 »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2025, 06:33:40 AM »
If a buckskin color it’s a maple stock and could be more likely a S. Hawken than a J&S Hawken; often stocked in walnut.

For good Hawken discussion go here and start at page 6 to see a lot of variety in original Hawken rifles. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/mountain-man-rifles.110850/page-6

Mountain Meek is a serious student. 
Andover, Vermont

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2025, 07:06:45 AM »


Another photo of a photo, a work in progress at the time of the pic. Early style J & S Hawken with early style breech, all hand made. Straight 1&1/8 barrel, 50 cal Bill Large. THRID Quarter of the last century  :)

Offline whetrock

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2025, 07:32:35 AM »
When I was about 14 I decided one day to reshape and refinish an old .22 that my family owned (that’s how I saw it, anyway). I sculpted the grip, inlayed a diamond of white wood in the bottom of the grip, cut off the tip of the forearm and replaced it with a piece of walnut. And of course I sanded it all down smooth, etc. My goal was to make it look a lot more like those stylish high-powered rifles that I drooled over in my catalogues. I was about ¾ of the way through this process when dad came home from work.

Dad was a pretty calm person most of the time. He even stayed reasonably calm that day. But I had never before seen him so upset or frustrated, nor have I seen him as upset since. In my mind I can still see him shaking and saying, “It was not yours to change. I’ve had that rifle since I was a kid. My brother and I got it as a gift for Christmas when we were teenagers.” That was followed by a very long pause as he looked at me, trying to decide what to say next, then finally he just repeated what he had said earlier, “It was not yours to change.”

As I’m sure you can imagine, it had a big impact on me. One thing I began to realize is that people value things for different reasons. I just saw a cheap rifle with cheap design, something to be improved, a canvas for my first foray into gun work. But for dad that rifle was a repository of memories.

The way I looked at old stuff and even old people and old culture began to change from that day. I began to realize that the traditional needed a closer look, and I’ve become more and more of a traditionalist over the decades since. I think that’s not an uncommon path. I think it’s not uncommon for guys who were once impressed with shiny and new and “perfect” to slowly migrate toward a preference for the traditional.

I think that the traditional Hawken rifles are for many people a lot like dad’s old rifle. They are a repository of memories. They aren’t individual memories, of course. They are cultural memories—memories that we share as a community, memories of our heroes, memories of an earlier period in our idea of the American experience. For a lot of us they are also no doubt related to a nostalgia we have for our youth and those impressionable years when we first encountered such grand things in the books and movies that described them.

So for many of us, it doesn’t really work to ask us to separate these things from our heroes and just ask how one might evaluate the design of wood and metal. For some of us, asking how we could improve a Hawken is kind of like asking us how we could improve our grandmothers. Some of our grandmothers may have been pretty. Others may have been a bit homely. But we don’t love our grandmother’s just because they were pretty. We love them because of what they represent to us. Even if they were a bit homely, we have no interest in changing them.

I don’t mean to suggest that design is of no significance. I just mean to put it in context. On a different thread someone commented that some people don’t know the difference between good design and mediocre or even bad design (my paraphrase). I’ve met people like that, too, so I agree with the observation, at least in a limited way. But I think it’s important to also recognize that an informed preference for the traditional is not the same thing as naiveté or ignorance. There are many on here who do know the difference, and yet they prefer the traditional, even with its details that others may consider flaws.

Offline flatsguide

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2025, 08:06:57 AM »
If Jim’s interpretation of a Hawken  made with a relatively short 33 +- an inch bbl of say 58 caliber people will be surprised on how light and quick handling it will be. It really should be made with a hooked breech, that along with the quick and easily removable bbl tenons it will be a breeze to clean.
cheers Richard

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2025, 08:34:11 AM »
I’m just posting from memory here, but I believe I’ve read where the Hawken brothers did a great deal of retrofitting various guns brought into their shop for use in the west. To me this implies a few things. One that they definitely had a particular set of criteria in mind for what a plains rifle needed to be, and two, that some guns marked Hawken may be a few of these surviving retrofits and not 100% Hawken so to speak.
Tim A
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Steeltrap

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2025, 03:58:38 PM »
The interesting part of looking at the various pictures posted of original Hawkens is they all look “similar”.

But differences are there. Different:

—Trigger Guard shape
—Buttplate shape
—Drop in comb
—Drop in heel
—Comb nose shape
—Wedge Key placement & distance
—Rear site placement
—Barrel length
—cheek piece shape


They are all “Hawken”. But certainly all different. Does that make a reproduction representation not historically correct?  Hawken styles and options are like a cafeteria selection. You may not like the flavor of lime jello, but it’s an option.

FWIW

Offline bluenoser

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2025, 04:06:34 PM »
Wonderfully put whetrock!
I do believe you have just summed it up in an impressively eloquent way.
Well done indeed.

Online Daniel Coats

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2025, 04:40:31 PM »
I get the emotional side of why change isn't always a good thing but do we have more specific Hawken features to talk about? More pictures of original or contemporary guns you feel really represent what a Hawken should look like.
Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2025, 04:43:59 PM »
I get the emotional side of why change isn't always a good thing but do we have more specific Hawken features to talk about? More pictures of original or contemporary guns you feel really represent what a Hawken should look like.

As above, For good Hawken discussion go here and start at page 6 to see a lot of variety in original Hawken rifles. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/mountain-man-rifles.110850/page-6

Louie Parker advised me to always build a Hawken rifle based closely on a specific original. Adding some features from other guns is fine, but he said “don’t average them out. That’s not interesting.”
Andover, Vermont

Offline AZshot

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2025, 04:50:23 PM »
If a buckskin color it’s a maple stock and could be more likely a S. Hawken than a J&S Hawken; often stocked in walnut.

For good Hawken discussion go here and start at page 6 to see a lot of variety in original Hawken rifles. https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/mountain-man-rifles.110850/page-6

Mountain Meek is a serious student.
That is an amazing amount of good information.  Thanks.

Steeltrap

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2025, 04:57:26 PM »
I don’t mean to suggest that design is of no significance. I just mean to put it in context. On a different thread someone commented that some people don’t know the difference between good design and mediocre or even bad design (my paraphrase). I’ve met people like that, too, so I agree with the observation, at least in a limited way. But I think it’s important to also recognize that an informed preference for the traditional is not the same thing as naiveté or ignorance. There are many on here who do know the difference, and yet they prefer the traditional, even with its details that others may consider flaws.

While your story on changing something you had no ownership in is reminiscent, building a replica Hawken flintlock presents challenges as there is no one specific historical Hawken rifle that is "cookie cutter" uniform to use as an example. And perhaps that's the way it should be (because that's the way it is)

You've stated "I think it’s important to also recognize that an informed preference for the traditional is not the same thing as naiveté or ignorance."  What you believe may be naiveté or ignorance may simply be "I choose to not make\do it that way". I've customized given builds to suite my needs and preferences...knowing the entire time that "purest" would scoff at the change.

With all of these given examples of a historical Hawken, I've seen no responses that state "this is how it should look" when you're done.

Online Stoner creek

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2025, 05:12:36 PM »
Welcome to the Hawkins Channel.
Stop Marxism in America

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2025, 05:19:50 PM »
Everyone, please leave the Kibler Hawken rifle out of this discussion. It doesn’t end well and adds zero, absolutely zero to the discussion of original Hawken rifles.  If you want to make comparisons of original Hawken rifles, compare to some other offering. There were 6 pages of that already and there’s nothing to add.


This new thread is not a work-around to get back and continue to say “I adore it” or “I despise it” or even “I don’t understand what the fuss is about because 1) I know little of originals or 2) they all vary so who cares or 3) I just want an inexpensive, easy to assemble, top shelf percussion rifle.

I assure you the site owner will lock this topic if it’s about the Kibler Hawken rifle’s authenticity.  Of course when it comes out, members will be welcome to discuss how it assembles, functions, shoots, looks, and so on. That day is not here. It’s a drawing.
Andover, Vermont


Offline reddogge

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2025, 07:55:04 PM »
I look for subtle little things most people don't notice or care about. One of those things is the swell in the center of the buttstock that goes back into a narrower buttplate. It's fairly obvious in most photos. To me it screams HAWKEN RIFLE. Another little thing is the slanted bolster that blends into the lock molding. Small thing but I like to see it. Here are some rifles that show both.



Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2025, 08:11:17 PM »
I like this one.



Ron
Ron Winfield

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2025, 08:21:14 PM »
A lot of people miss that the lock panels are often wider at the front than at the tails. Opposite of most earlier longrifles.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2025, 11:34:20 PM »
A lot of people miss that the lock panels are often wider at the front than at the tails. Opposite of most earlier longrifles.

I'm no authority on this feature, but it seems often to be present when you have a big barrel or barrels and a relatively small buttplate/buttstock.  A general question...  Why the gradual narrowing of the buttplate and buttstock from the mid 18th century?  In my view, they narrowed to sometimes a ridiculous level.  I've heard theories about patterns being used over many generations resulting in smaller mounts, but I don't think this is the full story.  Some would argue that big game was diminishing and there wasn't any need for a big gun.  Maybe true, but why in the case of a Hawken?   Maybe prevailing style rules?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2025, 11:57:56 PM »
The narrow buttplate phenomenon was widespread in the percussion era, and plenty of Southern mountain rifles had deeply curved and narrow iron buttplates by the 1830s.

Some hypothesize that some Hawken features were from (was it Jake’s?) experience at Harper’s Ferry (the halfstock thing possibly influenced by the 1803), patent breeches and hooked breeches with keyed forearm from British guns, and the steel buttplates (mostly because other influences are not strong hypotheses) from SMR’s.  These are reasonable guesses.  Some shooters today find a deep hook in the buttplate helps them balance a 9-11 pound gun offhand.  As in many style developments, there’s no diary where the designer records their development process. People are still trying to understand the influences behind some of Bob Dylan’s lyrics, and he’s alive to ask!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 04:32:50 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline whetrock

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Re: What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2025, 02:06:19 AM »
I don’t mean to suggest that design is of no significance. I just mean to put it in context. On a different thread someone commented that some people don’t know the difference between good design and mediocre or even bad design (my paraphrase). I’ve met people like that, too, so I agree with the observation, at least in a limited way. But I think it’s important to also recognize that an informed preference for the traditional is not the same thing as naiveté or ignorance. There are many on here who do know the difference, and yet they prefer the traditional, even with its details that others may consider flaws.

While your story on changing something you had no ownership in is reminiscent, building a replica Hawken flintlock presents challenges as there is no one specific historical Hawken rifle that is "cookie cutter" uniform to use as an example. And perhaps that's the way it should be (because that's the way it is)

You've stated "I think it’s important to also recognize that an informed preference for the traditional is not the same thing as naiveté or ignorance."  What you believe may be naiveté or ignorance may simply be "I choose to not make\do it that way". I've customized given builds to suite my needs and preferences...knowing the entire time that "purest" would scoff at the change.

With all of these given examples of a historical Hawken, I've seen no responses that state "this is how it should look" when you're done.

Steeltrap, thanks for the reply. I wasn’t meaning to criticize anyone's builds or choices, and wasn't meaning to suggest that anyone who wasn't a traditionalist was naive or ignorant. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.