What A Hawken Is Supposed To Look Like

[T.C.Albert]

When “Hawken and Campbell” reopened the old J&S shop in 1853, a business add stated they offered both California and Mountain rifles made to order. Clearly this implies a difference in them but what was it?
Thanks in advance
Tim A

[Leatherbark]

One difference is it seems like every original "California" rifle I have seen has a "Thompson Center Hawken" type trigger guard on it like many of the northeast late period percussion muzzleloaders had.   TC probably copied theirs from an original.

Here is a supposed "California Rifle"

Bob

[JTR]

When “Hawken and Campbell” reopened the old J&S shop in 1853, a business add stated they offered both California and Mountain rifles made to order. Clearly this implies a difference in them but what was it?
Thanks in advance
Tim A

The California gun could only shoot a cork! 
Smilin John

[Steeltrap]

When “Hawken and Campbell” reopened the old J&S shop in 1853, a business add stated they offered both California and Mountain rifles made to order. Clearly this implies a difference in them but what was it?
Thanks in advance
Tim A

The California gun could only shoot a cork! 
Smilin John

No corks were harmed in the shooting of this firearm.   

[Bob Roller]

Hoffman&Campbell was the name on a VERY Hawken styled rifle owned by Tom Dawson and it was described in Francis Parkman's book titled "The Oregon Trail" as a long and heavy St.Louis Rifle and it had a 50 caliber barrel about 43 inches long.I shot it when visiting Tom and his family in 1972.Parkman gave this rifle to his guide Henry Chatillion (Shottyon)and it was found in the Chatillion home rollled up in a painting of a pretty Indian woman.It WAS a J&S Hawken from muzzle to butt plate and I still have the lock plate profile for it.Internally it was a very simple single position caplock and the long bar triggers were made by transferring the triggers and springs plus screws to a 1/2X10 bar.
I have made a number of these and they are not hard to make.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

The “Smithsonian” Hawken can be seen here. Obviously late and also small caliber.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_414955


Thiss as usss gun apparently converted from flintlock to percussion using a drum and nipple setup.
[/quote
There is the possibility the Smithsonian Hawken WAS MADE as a caplock using a converted lock rather than being a Hawken made as a flintlock to begin with and converted later to what is seen now.The fact that THIS gun is on display as it is now is NOT proof it was a flintlock at any point in time.The lock was flint and that's all that can be proved.The rest is what Bill Large called "High Powered guesswork.
Bob Roller.

[rich pierce]

High powered guesswork on both sides. It would seem an oddity to use an old flintlock and drum and nipple in a time when percussion locks and patent breeches were readily available and used all the other times by Sam Hawken. So either possibility is what we used to call a “formal possibility.”  One that cannot be proven one way or the other.

[Daniel Coats]

Maybe a rebuild of a customers gun although that seems unlikely based on how little they apparently used of it.

[Jim Kibler]

One difference is it seems like every original "California" rifle I have seen has a "Thompson Center Hawken" type trigger guard on it like many of the northeast late period percussion muzzleloaders had.   TC probably copied theirs from an original.

Here is a supposed "California Rifle"

Bob

That's a pretty amazing intact finish.  Seems pretty dark but with a tint of red.  Anyone have an idea how this finish was made?

[Bob Roller]

That is a good looking rifle.That style trigger guard in silver or steel is good looking but brass to me has no place on this style of rifle.
Good finish and workmanship and who made it?'
Bob Roller

[Longknife]

 

The “Smithsonian” Hawken can be seen here. Obviously late and also small caliber.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object/nmah_414955


Thiss as usss gun apparently converted from flintlock to percussion using a drum and nipple setup.

That "recessed breech" was used by English makers to get the pan closer to the flash channel. ,,,LK 

[Longknife]

One difference is it seems like every original "California" rifle I have seen has a "Thompson Center Hawken" type trigger guard on it like many of the northeast late period percussion muzzleloaders had.   TC probably copied theirs from an original.

Here is a supposed "California Rifle"

Bob

That's a pretty amazing intact finish.  Seems pretty dark but with a tint of red.  Anyone have an idea how this finish was made?

Is that the "VIOLIN FINISH" I hear so much about?...LK

[Bob Roller]

The lock on the English gun is a masterpiece.U'd like to see the inside of it.The rest of the gun seems to match the lock,
Bob Rollrt

[Daryl]

Sure is, bob. quite lovely.

[reddogge]

That English gun has that sloping bolster than leads into the lock molding which I find to be an attractive feature of the Hawken rifles.

[Leatherbark]

The rifle pictured below was sold on Morphy's auctions in 2019.  It is depicted as an "Extreme high value Sam Hawken rifle".  It looks really good in all the pictures.  If you would like to look at all the images I can post the link.  I wasn't sure if it was okay to post links to sites like that.

Bob

One difference is it seems like every original "California" rifle I have seen has a "Thompson Center Hawken" type trigger guard on it like many of the northeast late period percussion muzzleloaders had.   TC probably copied theirs from an original.

Here is a supposed "California Rifle"

Bob

[rich pierce]

Bob, I consider auction pictures to be in the public domain and often save them and sometimes post them here. Saves people time. It’s ok to post a link as well to a past or current auction as long as not done in order to sell something. It’s forbidden in the for sale section where it could be used to sell an item listed elsewhere and not actually listed here. “Go look at my listing somewhere else” is what’s not allowed.

[Daniel Coats]

How would we go about duplicating this finish today? Is it Shellac based or lacquer or varnish or something else. I'm guessing multiple steps of course. Then if you rubbed it back in common wear areas how could you achieve that buckskin color underneath. Has anyone tried to do this? Maybe in restoration to match replacement areas?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I don't think it's too difficult to capture the nuances that make or break a Hawken rifle, if the builder studies and pays close attention to the details.  But one of the common fails I see in builds is the use of castings offered in today's market.  Some of these are salvageable by filing, etc. and make suitable parts.  One such part is the Hawken butt plate.  Many castings do not have the heel spur that was common on the Hawkens' rifles.  Today's offerings lack the extended heel and feature a flat uninteresting heel.  This might be more comfortable to shoot, especially prone, but to my eye, is BUTT UGLY...sorry for the pun.
TOW's Jim Bridger butt plate approaches the correct shape, and can be improved with judicious filing.  Also, Don Stith's buttplates are excellent too.  I post a couple of pictures here of one as an example...

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Taylor!  I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that buttplate was awful.  Was starting to question everything I thought was so in life.😉

[Daniel Coats]

How would we go about duplicating this finish today? Is it Shellac based or lacquer or varnish or something else. I'm guessing multiple steps of course. Then if you rubbed it back in common wear areas how could you achieve that buckskin color underneath. Has anyone tried to do this? Maybe in restoration to match replacement areas?

This question has been asked a few times and I haven't seen anyone take a stab at it that I can find so I'm sticking my neck out. I think it's shellac. Please argue with me if you disagree!

Here's something I found online "Shellac was a common finish for furniture and other wood in the 19th century, and was also used on firearms. Shellac is a natural resin that's secreted by an insect, and it's easy to apply and repair."

And it looks like tinted shellac to me. They may have put something over it to protect it but my bet is it's mostly shellac.

[Jim Kibler]

Most old shellac I've seen tends to "crawl" a pretty serious amount.  The once smooth finish ends up having a prominent orange peel appearance.  I'm no expert on shellac though...

[smoke and flames]

I once had an antique rifle where the stock finish orange peeled pretty bad. It looked like allegator skin.  I was about to try and strip it to refinish and a friend said just rub it down with isopropyl alcohol and see  what happens. Well it cleared it up right away and I never did anything else to the stock.

[rich pierce]

I guess we are sure the finish on that California style Hawken rifle is original and unaltered since it was applied. That’s rare but possible.

[Daniel Coats]

I once had an antique rifle where the stock finish orange peeled pretty bad. It looked like allegator skin.  I was about to try and strip it to refinish and a friend said just rub it down with isopropyl alcohol and see  what happens. Well it cleared it up right away and I never did anything else to the stock.

Almost guaranteed to be shellac from what I've read.