Author Topic: Barrel breeching heresy  (Read 952 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Barrel breeching heresy
« on: April 04, 2025, 02:29:02 PM »
I’ve unbreeched 5 proofed original trade gun/fowler/musket barrels in the past week. None have a counterbore or “shoulder” for the breechplug to butt up against tightly. Zero. All have proof marks. 3 English, one French, one Dutch. The plug threads are perfect in these rusty old barrels. This is undeniable.

We’ve been told that fitting a breechplug up against a shoulder in the breech is absolutely critical for safety and longevity to prevent corrosion.

Both can be true. I’ll “explain” why. Actually, propose a hypothesis.

My original barrels are threaded like pipes. Pipes are threaded so they won’t leak. That’s because pipes would be rejected if they leak. Leaking is bad. The pipe system of threading works.

But if/when there IS a shoulder, as has been the case in rifles and more recent smoothbores, the breechplug face must snug up against the face of the shoulder or water contaminated with fouling in cleaning will be trapped in the pocket between breech shoulder and breechplug face.

So, both can be true. An excellent fit of breechplug to shoulder is required when there’s a shoulder. But some barrels have no breech shoulder and the system is superb. Y’all probably knew that but in 55 years of reading all things black powder, I didn’t.

Andover, Vermont

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2025, 03:07:58 PM »
  Rich sometimes we think we need to improve an old way. But we really don't. Also may apply to the use of a vent liner too ?  Thanks for posting .

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2025, 03:14:22 PM »
I have observed rhe same thing as Rich. There is almost never a shoulder. I have seem at least one original with a shoulder however, but most do not have one.

While most of rhe original barrels I have debreeched are straight threaded, I unbleached a Twigg 7 bore barrel and it had a tapered thread. It had never been unbleached before.  A sliver of the gold touch hole liner was sheared off during the debreeching process. The touch hole is the type that actually intersects the plug behind the end of the plug to penetrate into a central chamber in the breech plug. It had some sort of resin on the threads to seal them and the threads have a 1 degree taper. There was no shoulder sealing surface. There was no corrosion on the threads, only the slightest amount of staining around the touchhole penetation, even though the barrel had obviously been used quite a bit.

I believe that the breech plug die and thread tap were cut as matched pairs. The tap was cut first and then used to make the die. This allows the plug and barrel thread to be perfect matches for each other. Even without a tapered thread a plug and barrel made with a match tap and die would seal perfectly. The die could be made adjustable to cut the threads slightly over sized and the plug lapped to fit. A rosin sealer applied to the thread would ensure a perfect seal.

The dies also seem to have been ground to a life edge so that the threads end with no relief on the tang. There is rarely any visible chamfer on the barrel or plug threads.

Mike

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2025, 03:19:01 PM »
  Rich sometimes we think we need to improve an old way. But we really don't. Also may apply to the use of a vent liner too ?  Thanks for posting .

I think we have to use a sealing shoulder for modern made barrels because our taps and dies are not perfect fits. There is always clearance between the threads of UN standard threads by design. The only we can seal a thread is to use a shoulder, unless we are going to make tape and die sets that match.

I have made a matching tap and die set in the past, I wanted to see if it worked. It worked well. That is why I believe that is how they did it back then.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 03:29:25 PM by Mattox Forge »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2025, 03:24:49 PM »
Excellent, Mike. The matching tap and die makes a lot of sense. And that’s how they made dies!  With “that” tap!
Andover, Vermont

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2025, 03:58:40 PM »
Were the old " rifles " breeched  that way as well ?   :-\

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2025, 04:06:11 PM »
Were the old " rifles " breeched  that way as well ?   :-\

The Twigg barrel I mentioned is a rifle. All of the original English rifles I have debreeched are the same as well.

Mike

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2025, 04:09:00 PM »
Were the old " rifles " breeched  that way as well ?   :-\
I don’t think so in the percussion era at least. Just reading Mike’s post above this system was used sometimes in rifles. It seems rifling could make at least a small shelf or shoulder helpful because the grooves are deeper than bore diameter.  Many years ago in the Dixon’s Gunmakers Fair days we went to a museum. I think it was related to the Henry or Leman shops. Can’t recall. They had old tools that were very ingenious for counterboring a breech to establish a shoulder the plugs would butt against. The tools had a pilot that centered the cutter in the bore. I’m thinking the barrels were forged, drilled, reamed, breeched, then rifled.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2025, 04:10:46 PM »
Mike and Rich,
It would also be imperative for tapered threads to be perfectly fitting if a shoulder was used,.
What I mean is, if the tap butted up to a shoulder, the threaded plug should also tighten In the Threads as it butted up, or all deals would be off.
A plug wobbling about as it butted up wouldn't last.

Where I Can see a shouldered fit working, is in a barrel that was expected to be shot lots and freshed out to a larger size.

Online whetrock

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2025, 04:18:12 PM »
Where I Can see a shouldered fit working, is in a barrel that was expected to be shot lots and freshed out to a larger size.

Great observation, Pukka Bundook.

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2025, 04:23:21 PM »
This shows the Twigg barrel and plug. The end of the plug does form a rough chamfer and that seats into a corresponding chamfer in the barrel, however the surfaces are not in perfect contact all the way around, so this is not the primary sealing surface on this barrel. The tap ran through this chamfer as shown here

To Pukka's point though, the chamfer and threads all have to end at the same time. I suspect that the chamfer in the barrel was formed by the tap on this barrel. The chamfer on the plug may have been formed by the die as well, however, it would be a delicate die, and fitting the plug to seat in the chamfer would be easy enough.

I am sure other barrel makers had their own techniques which were different. The tools Rich mentioned seem to indicate a different method.









Mike
« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 04:28:12 PM by Mattox Forge »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2025, 04:26:55 PM »
Beautiful.
Andover, Vermont

Offline alacran

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2025, 04:39:56 PM »
In Colonial Frontier Guns, by Hamiton, Hamilton speaks of itinerant French armorers being sent out to maintain native guns. The majority of the repairs were cutting back and re-breeching barrels along with doing what was necessary to make the gun conform to the re-breeching.
As far as making a plug and die without windage in the threads, all you have to do is look at the threads that Rich and Mattox forge picture. They are far from perfect.  If you have threads that are perfect mirror images, you would not be able to screw them together.
That is why they used pitch to seal the threads.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Online whetrock

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2025, 05:18:29 PM »
This is a great thread, Rich.

It would be helpful to know how essential the sap/pitch thread sealer is on these old barrels. Without it, would these barrels have sealed adequately?

The fact that thread sizes were not standardized seems likely to have affected practice back then. It may be that people were more likely to use a shoulder technique if they were using a standard set of taps. If they were making taps to whatever random size they needed, then perhaps they were less like to use a shoulder.

The contrast between smooth bore guns and rifles may also be a big factor in the contrast. (Pukka Bundook's comment.)

And within those factors, there's also the historical contrast between "what was done" and "what was done well". Some old breachs failed disastrously, with death and injury the result. The old records make that clear. (The fact that an old firearm has survived thus far doesn't in itself indicate anything about the quality of the craftsmanship or techniques used in its original production. Some old guns survived simply because the mainspring or cock broke and so they didn't get used much after that. So in those instances, the survival was a factor of the POOR quality of the materials or craftsmanship or technique. So we have to use our heads when studying old techniques.)

Here are two historical documents that show that this discussion about technique is not a new one. Both of these mention bottoming taps. Note that the second specifically addresses other techniques and recommended against some methods. I'm not meaning to arguing in favor of a contemporary technique. But I do think it is helpful to note that some old techniques may have been frowned upon even back in the day.

From Sprengle. “The Gunmaker and Gunstocker”, published in 1771. Translated in JHAT, June 1988, III, p 25-28) (Figures refer to a woodcut image published on page 26 of the JHAT volume. All notes here are from that translation.)

(p 26) As is well known, a breechplug [Schwanzschraube, or literally tail screw] is screwed into the breech [here unterste Mündung eines Laufs or “lower mouth of the barrel”], and therefore threads must be cut into this opening. The pointed thread tap [in] Fig.XIII “a” [starts the thread in] the hole first, and in order for this stout tap to be easily turned, a tap wrench [Windeisen, or winding iron] “cd” is attached to its square shank “c”
(p28) while tapping. The same is also true for the bottoming tap [kalibermässignen Bohrer or gauged bit] Fig. XIII “e,” with which the female thread is finished out for the breechplug. The last tap therefore must be of a [constant diameter for its full length], like the breech plug. The [threads of the] breech-plug are cut with the screw plate [the word Schraubenmutter is also used here; it also signifies a nut or female thread] Fig. XIII “f”, which the bottoming tap “e” fits exactly. Therefore, the bottoming tap “E” with its accompanying screw plate “f” form a powerful cutting mechanism.



From Stelle and Harrison. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883. reading here from 2013 edition. p 166- 169.
Stelle and Harrison first note that they have occasionally seen breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug. But they criticize that technique (as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and pick up with the following:

Let the workman discard all such ways of breeching guns. Let him procure a set of taps of the sizes and threads as noticed in the beginning of this article, and “stick to these sizes.” … Breeching taps should be made in pairs, one tapered a little and its mate made straight and with a full thread, so as to cut full at the bottom where the thread terminates.


Stelle and Harrison also describe how to make a tap with a protruding “stem or projection” that will help the tap align with the bore. (They provide woodcut image, figure 36, and the image shows the tap made with bottoming threads. A similar tool, tool #1, is shown on page 64, plate 46, of Dillon’s “The Kentucky Rifle”, 1967 edition.)



Again, just to emphasize it, I'm not meaning to argue for anything regarding contemporary methods. I hope this thread doesn't get into that debate. Keeping it to Rich's original topic would make me happy. Also, sorry for the long post. Not meaning to hog the mic.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 05:40:53 PM by whetrock »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2025, 06:35:47 PM »
Good points, and it’s likely a series of at least 2 taps were used as we do now. But I don’t see mention above regarding using a specialized tool to create an enlarged breech with a shoulder. Though as I said above, I’ve seen such a tool in a percussion era factory setting.

These barrels were all proofed - of course we don’t know how tight the loads were. I’m guessing they were looking more for barrel failure than breeching failure, though either could happen and probably did. Back when I started it was recommended we proof our barrels, and we tied them to spare tires and set them off with firecracker fuses.
Andover, Vermont

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2025, 06:50:28 PM »
I just smelled smoke and looked around and my pants were on fire! I spoke too soon without measuring. The breech plugs are about 0.100” larger than the muzzle. Thus there IS some sort of counterbore I could not see at first. But much less than I’m used to seeing. I think it’s half and half. Not tapered like pipe threads but not much of a shoulder either.
Andover, Vermont

Online whetrock

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2025, 07:47:13 PM »
Yeah, it seems to me that the only reason for a "bottoming tap" is that there is a bottom to the hole. This is in contrast to a tapered tap, where the threads can just fade out into the bore. So if these texts are describing parallel sided taps and threads all the way to the end, it seems to me that the hole would have had at least some tiny bit of shoulder. I have used one contemporary built barrel that looked like what you are describing. Almost no shoulder visible on the rifled grooves other than what was filled by threads. It was rifled, though, so there was a shoulder at the back of the lands.

With 18th c taps, tapping iron, the tap may have been both swaging and cutting. If swaging was involved, then it seems to me that some amount of counterbore may have been required. The swaged threads rise up out of the base material. So if the diameter of the threaded breech you see now is any less than the diameter of the bore, then the technique may have involved creating at least some counterbore before threading. If it didn't include any counterbore, then we might anticipate the diameter of the threaded breech to be slightly less than the bore. Just thinking out loud here. Haven't done this myself. If I have this logic messed up, let me know.

Regarding the Stelle and Harrison reference, here are a couple of photos of pages where they describe the cutter for counterboring the breech. (They call it a reamer.) This was 1883. The text also mentioned "breech-pins", so it's clear they are still talking about muzzleloaders here. But as you noted, with this reference, at least, we may also need to consider a contrast between percussion versus flint era techniques.
(See my handwritten "D", where the text seems to be describing filing some relief behind the cutting edges.)
p 165-166.





« Last Edit: April 04, 2025, 08:21:53 PM by whetrock »

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2025, 07:56:10 PM »
Even in the flint era a shoulder was shown. I have not debreeched one of these yet, but I have a Baker pistol and a Nock rifle with this for of breech that I need to to inspect.


I imagine that they went the belt and suspenders route in the higher end flint guns and fit the threads and the shoulder. By the percussion era, the standards had been raised.

Mike

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2025, 08:53:00 PM »
Yep the breech reaming tool is similar to what I saw at that museum but theirs was meant to be turned by hand with a spanned, or do it looked. Still learning.
Andover, Vermont

Offline HSmithTX

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2025, 08:53:57 PM »
A tapered thread and a hard shoulder is hard to time for sealing even with CNC machines capable of holding tolerance in the +/-.0002" range. It's done regularly for oilfield and subsea oil and gas connections with tapered shoulders rather than a hard shoulder, sometimes multiple tapered threads with multiple tapered shoulders all in the same connection but those are for tens of thousands of PSI internal pressure while also bearing the weight of the string that can be in the millions of pounds. For straight threads a shoulder is more or less needed as only a portion of the length of a straight thread deforms enough to seal and it's not a full seal in any case, cranking a plug face against a hard shoulder works well and it's pretty easy to machine. It is also simple math to time flats on the plug to flats on the barrel and I would guess that these conveniences are why we see most done this way today.  A tapered thread makes a LOT of sense for breeching to me.  That is a case where your tap and die don't need to match exactly,  depth of bore/thread and length of plug aren't very critical at all either.  The critical feature that needs to be shared is the angle of taper,  if that is relatively close it will seal and seal well.  A tapered thread will rotate a good distance after contact as well making timing the plug to the barrel pretty easy. 

Offline hudson

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2025, 03:16:20 PM »
Just a thought I talked to a gentleman that was a well respected builder in the early days of long range at Friendship He liked a slightly lose fit of the threads, the thought was it would help alignment on the face of the plug against the seat for a better seal.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Barrel breeching heresy
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2025, 03:38:03 PM »
Whetrock,
You mentioned partly swaging the threads, and this was a fact for sure, but can't think where I read it now.
I am surprised this wasn't brought up eaarlier, as it is a known fact here I am sure.

You mention us wondering what was used to seal threads,
I know in some cases the Stockholm tar was used,  as I mentioned earlier, as I have debreeched a barrel that had this on the threads.
It was a very rusty rifled barrel found in a hedge hammered into the ground muzzle up.  This was back in the UK.
The under rib had curled off mainly with rust.
I heated the breech and as it warmed, bubbles of black tar emerged from the threads, and it was Stockholm tar, as I knew the smell very well from farm use.
It unscrewed easily when warmed, and no rust on the threads.
 BTW, I have never heated a barrel blue, just hot enough to sizzle spit.

ATB,
R.