Studying Originals: Early Dickert of Lancaster Pennsylvania

[rich pierce]

Good stuff. Next: what do you like about it besides it being an early Dickert that says “early”?

My reactions :
Great architecture (if there hadn’t been wood loss at the nose of the comb) with clear Lancaster styling
Not my favorite patchbox. I’d prefer the Dickert-attributed box that lost its gun
Cheekpiece carving is excellent and foundational
Unlike the Marshall rifle or RCA 19 and others that could pass for provincial Germanic guns, this feels American-made, 100% to me. I wish I could point out exactly why besides the brass box.

[alacran]

I'm 1500 miles from my modest library at the moment, so I cannot give specifics as to a particular book. Most of the Dickerts being discussed here are his best efforts. He also made guns for military use and the one that comes to mind is in one of Whisker's book. I bring that up because I believe he probably made many unadorned rifles which are lost to time.
RCA 1 shows an Issac Haines that at best can be described as a modest rifle. Luckily it survives and shows the basic Lancaster traits without the bling.
I do not recollect the specific number in the RCA book.

[rich pierce]

I'm 1500 miles from my modest library at the moment, so I cannot give specifics as to a particular book. Most of the Dickerts being discussed here are his best efforts. He also made guns for military use and the one that comes to mind is in one of Whisker's book. I bring that up because I believe he probably made many unadorned rifles which are lost to time.
RCA 1 shows an Issac Haines that at best can be described as a modest rifle. Luckily it survives and shows the basic Lancaster traits without the bling.
I do not recollect the specific number in the RCA book.

Agree, this is high end and many were plainer and later.

[Jim Kibler]

What separates American from European pieces?

Hinged metal box
Curly maple for stock (small chance of finding this on a European piece)
Generally longer barrel

Next comes characteristic details that are assignable to particular makers from signatures etc...

[rich pierce]

What separates American from European pieces?

Hinged metal box
Curly maple for stock (small chance of finding this on a European piece)
Generally longer barrel

Next comes characteristic details that are assignable to particular makers from signatures etc...

Jim, do the guard and side plate on this Dickert fit well into the variability of these elements in contemporaneous European rifles?

[Jim Kibler]

The sideplate is certainly an iconic form that is often seen on American pieces and it certainly speaks to us.  I don't know if the squared off shape is ever seen on European pieces, but I think you do see some.  Probably not with this exact form, though.

The guard is certainly racier than most European examples and has to me trended in the iconic longrifle design.  Squared off finials with facets are seen on European examples though.

My 2 cents anyway....

[Lone Wolf]

To my eye that comb profile looks like it may have been altered later in life.

Agree, it looks like there is wood loss on the comb from above the front of the patchbox to the junction with the wrist.  Even without that possible wood loss, it seems like the nose of the comb would be pretty low before dropping to the wrist. If we compare the buttstock on this Dickert to that of the Albrecht Lancaster style buttstock, there are some significant differences. Is this an earlier style of Dickert architecture or a one-off to fit a specific customer? I don’t know how much that might have been done.

I've seen this Dickert before and have always wondered about the comb.  Was it made that way, was it worn down over time, was it damaged, or was it altered intentionally?

Here's the first gun I ever built, many moons ago, that was supposed to be a Dickert style.  The comb was equal parts inspired by Dickert examples such as the one shown in this thread, and not knowing exactly what I was doing.

[JTR]

Lonewolf, Nice job. You got the engraving basics on the patchbox down pretty well!

[Martin S.]

I am a Dickert fan.  My family goes back to Lancaster, PA, and I'd like to think that one of my ancestors owned one.

I've seen pics in books. I bid on one at auction, but sadly, could not afford it. I love to look at pics of them on the internet any chance I get.

Thanks for this thread.

[Joe Stein]

Rich, I think two things that say early are the patchbox and the triggers.  I think it's fairly well known that the patchbox is one used by Dickert on early guns.
That style of trigger has had plenty of discussion here in the past. Maybe when I get some time I will try to look up some of those discussions. I'm pretty busy the next few days.
Somebody else jump in now that I have broken the ice.
Joe Stein

Joe, that type of flat rear set trigger is very rare. I can think of one other on an American-made gun, shown in one of the books on Moravian guns. Also very early.

(Added in edit) Joe, that box really is pre- Golden Age in so many ways. I think many students guesstimate that the daisy patchbox common to many Golden Age Lancaster rifles may have emerged by the start of the Revolutionary War. Or, at the latest, by the early post-war years. The box on this one is atypical and looks like it had no offspring. Seems Dickert abandoned it as opposed to expanding on it in his later builds.

I hope others will reply to comments as well. It’s meant to be a round table discussion.

Rich Pierce and Jim Kibler, I haven't been ignoring you. I posted here and then ended up taking my daughter to the hospital and being away until now. At this point I am still too busy with caring for her.

[rich pierce]

Hoping things go well, Joe.

[FlinterNick]

The sideplate is certainly an iconic form that is often seen on American pieces and it certainly speaks to us.  I don't know if the squared off shape is ever seen on European pieces, but I think you do see some.  Probably not with this exact form, though.

The guard is certainly racier than most European examples and has to me trended in the iconic longrifle design.  Squared off finials with facets are seen on European examples though.

My 2 cents anyway....

My 2 cents on the tiggers, maybe the owner had an issue with his trigger finger, maybe it was smaller or he lost half of it? Sometimes you’ve gotta think outside the universe of guns.

Nick

[B Kauffman]

I'm late to the party on this one.
I notice on this forum very few comment to posts. I'm hesitant to comment most times because while yes, flintlock guns is one of my biggest interests, there's a ton of people on here who like to put you in your place rather quick. I'm young compared to most (35) so I don't have the knowledge most of you do, at least in some things like schools, builders etc. I've discussed this issue of why I don't post much on here, or comment on here to members of ALR while in person with them. Anyhow now that I got that out here, and you know why I don't spend much time on here, I'll take a stab at it. And prepare to likely get put in my place lol.

I think what "says" that this gun is early to me is the thicker wrist.  It has what I would say is an earlier lock with more of a banana shape lock plate and I must add that I love it!
It says Lancaster to me from the straight comb and straight line from toe up to the wrist.
Thats all I got.

I love this gun and I've looked at Ethans video more than once just because I have not had the time or opportunity to handle originals as much as I wish I could so I like video over pictures as it gives me different angles to observe so I can improve my builds to look more like just that...an original.

One thing I'll note, it could be from wear rather than how it was built but I gotta give more contrast from that comb into the wrist. I just dont like the look of that.  Do you think it was from use or shaped that way?

[rich pierce]

Thanks for weighing in. I’m thinking the comb was modified for a second owner.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm late to the party on this one.
I notice on this forum very few comment to posts. I'm hesitant to comment most times because while yes, flintlock guns is one of my biggest interests, there's a ton of people on here who like to put you in your place rather quick. I'm young compared to most (35) so I don't have the knowledge most of you do, at least in some things like schools, builders etc. I've discussed this issue of why I don't post much on here, or comment on here to members of ALR while in person with them. Anyhow now that I got that out here, and you know why I don't spend much time on here, I'll take a stab at it. And prepare to likely get put in my place lol.

All of the seasoned masters on here were once young and inexperienced.  I'm in my late 40s but still consider myself to be young in this hobby and I ask more than my fair share of "dumb questions".  We need more guys in their 30s and 40s to carry on the sport, so I would encourage you to post more and not to be intimidated.  We'll be the old timers before we know it and we won't know what we're talking about then if we don't venture out of our comfort zones and be vulnerable now.