Author Topic: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken  (Read 759 times)

Offline Notchy Bob

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"Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« on: May 08, 2025, 05:16:31 AM »
When I was quite young, I saw this picture in one of my dad's gun books:



This was in The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, by Ned Roberts.  That was a long time ago, but the image stayed in my head, and I still have the book, which is the third (1947) edition, 1952 printing. 

I took a closer look at the picture recently.  At first glance, it's just a half-stocked Hawken.  However, this one is different.  The 28" barrel (from the photo caption) is shorter than most.  A lot of these rifles were cut down, but Bob Woodfill wrote an article about short-barreled Hawkens that were purpose-built that way.  This was in the April 2018 issue of Muzzle Blasts, I believe, and it was reprinted as a chapter in Bob's book.  These short Hawkens are not common, but a few are out there, and a couple of them have only one ramrod pipe on the rib, like this one.

Shiff's rifle also has only one barrel key, which really is unusual.  The rear sight looks atypical to me, as it is not leaning back and it appears very low.  The photo also appears to show a drum and nipple arrangement rather than a patent breech.  I've seen this on a couple of Hawken-marked rifles that appeared to be spurious, but this one, despite these atypical features, has the Hawken "look," to me. 

The triggerguard seems to have very shallow bow, and the buttplate looks like it was forged out of rather thin stock, rather than cast.  The inside corner, where the return joins the body of the buttplate, looks square rather than radiused.  Bearing in mind that this rifle is marked S. HAWKEN ST. LOUIS,and not J&S, it must be post 1849, which is when Jacob died in the cholera epidemic.  I thought by that time Sam was using cast buttplates.

One other thing is that the caption says this rifle is .45 caliber.  I know the Hawken shop produced some smaller caliber rifles for emigrants and the local trade, but this rifle weighs over ten pounds.  I ran some numbers with a barrel weight calculator and calculated that a 1.125" barrel of .45 caliber, 28" long, would weigh a little over seven pounds, which would probably be in the ballpark.

Generally speaking, guns owned by famous people are more highly regarded than those carried by the hoi polloi.  While "Shiff the Gunman" is hardly as well-known as some other Hawken owners like Carson, Bridger, "Liver Eating Johnson," and so forth, he was pretty well known among gun traders for a number of years. 

There is some information about him "out there," in print and on the web, but it is fragmented and sometimes contradictory.  His name was either Carroll B. Shiff or Carl B. Shiffer, but he used the name "Shiff the Gunman" for his gun trading business.  Depending on whom you believe, he was either born in July, 1855 in a covered wagon in Montana Territory, or in 1878 in Waterloo, Iowa.  Those who report the earlier date indicate Shiff was a typical westerner, doing some trading, trapping, hunting, cowboying, etc.  before moving to the vicinity of Woodstock, New Hampshire.  The exact date that he established his business may not be clear, but I understand he was in New Hampshire by 1902, and lived there as sort of a recluse until his death in August, 1952, at the age of either 97 or about 74.  Ned Roberts apparently knew him, and espoused the earlier birthdate.  Roberts himself was born in 1866, and he probably would have known if a man was younger than himself.  The November 1952 issue of Muzzle Blasts, published three months after Shiff's death, ran his photo on the cover, with a memorial article by Major Hugh Smiley:



Major Smiley knew Shiff, but paraphrased a lot of what Ned Roberts had already written along with some additional information provided by himself.  Ned Roberts thought enough of Shiff to put his photograph (with that same Hawken rifle on his lap) and a short bio in the preface of his book:



That photograph and write-up by Ned Roberts was evidently in the first edition of The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, which was published in 1940.  Shiff would have been 85 then, if he had indeed been born in 1855.

Stan Holz wrote a biographical article about Shiff, published in the October 2012 issue of The Outdoor Gazette.  Mr. Holz investigated all of the sources he could find, including archived materials, and stated positively that Shiff was born in 1878, in Iowa.

A lot more could be written about Shiff in this post, but I wanted to keep it as brief as I could, at least for now. 

In any event, what we have here is a pretty good old photograph of a rather unusual original Hawken rifle, which was owned at one time by a colorful and eccentric individual who was well known and well regarded in the shooting world.  I wanted to throw this out there for you folks to look over and comment on the rifle or on Shiff the Gunman.  I was also wondering if anyone has any idea regarding this rifle's current whereabouts.  It would be great to have it properly examined and written up by one of our resident experts.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline rich pierce

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2025, 02:41:52 PM »
It looks like a cross between their plains rifles and local rifles, which commonly had just one key in the forearm.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2025, 03:08:35 PM »
 8) 8).. thanx Bob.... I always enjoy stories about guns and characters from the past.... they are our heritage... !!! ... any other you can add is greatly appreciated... regards,... CCF

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2025, 03:46:47 PM »
It looks like a cross between their plains rifles and local rifles, which commonly had just one key in the forearm.

Thanks, Rich.  I appreciate your insight.

8) 8).. thanx Bob.... I always enjoy stories about guns and characters from the past.... they are our heritage... !!! ... any other you can add is greatly appreciated... regards,... CCF

Thank you for your comments, CCF!  I enjoy the stories, too.  As for Shiff, I really want to believe the 1855 covered wagon story.  I'm sure you recall the line from Liberty Valance:  "This is the west, sir.  When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2025, 04:10:40 PM »
We did an article on Schiff in Man at Arms a few issues ago and had to do some research for it. The bottom line is that he was a very shrewd operator. He very effectively created a myth about himself.  Virtually everything in his self-proclaimed "biography" is made up. He wasn't anywhere near 85 when that picture was taken...among other things we found his WWI draft registration. I don't remember the details off hand but you can always try to find the article.

Offline geologyjohn

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2025, 04:31:41 PM »
I can't shed any light on the rifle, but here is a bit more about the man:  Carroll Barrows Shiffer, son of James Knox Shiffer and Josephine Ella Barrows.  Born Feb. 21, 1878 in Tilton, N.H.  His mother died in 1879 in N.H.  The father then moved the family to Iowa, where they lived for much of the 1880's-circa 1910.  Communities that they lived in or near were Tipton, Waterloo, and De Witt.  The 1910 U.S. census shows Carroll aka "Carl" living in De Witt and employed as a "Teamster", living with his father and stepmother.  By 1920 the census has him living in New Hampshire (Woodstock) and employed as a "Forest Manager" with the U.S. Government.  His 1952 Death Certificate notes that he died in the hospital on August 21, 1952.  Cause of death "Skull Fracture", which occurred at home.  No reason given for the injury.  The death certificate listed his vocation as "Gunsmith".  I got the above information from Ancestory.com this morning.

Offline OLUT

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2025, 04:39:03 PM »
We did an article on Schiff in Man at Arms a few issues ago and had to do some research for it. The bottom line is that he was a very shrewd operator. He very effectively created a myth about himself.  Virtually everything in his self-proclaimed "biography" is made up. He wasn't anywhere near 85 when that picture was taken...among other things we found his WWI draft registration. I don't remember the details off hand but you can always try to find the article.
I agree that Shiff made a legend of himself. As a NH resident, I've heard many tales of him. Here's my take on Shiff based on just an hour's computer searching. Using various census information and his tombstone it seems like Carroll Barrows Shiffer was born in Tilton, NH on 21 February 1878. By age two, he and his mother were living with his uncle, Daniel Knowles, a methodist minister, in Lawrence, Mass. By 1900, this same extended family was back in Tilton, NH. In 1910, Shiff was now in DeWitt, Iowa working as a "trainman" on the railroad. His WW1 draft registration card lists him living in North Woodstock, NH (born 21 February. 1879) and working for the Forest Service as a District Ranger. The ALR software currently isn't loading images, but his tombstone and an article by the local historical society on January 8, 2024 have more info on Shiff.

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2025, 05:18:16 PM »
Thanks to all who responded.  You guys are a lot more resourceful than I am!

I found the back issue of Man At Arms mentioned by J V Puleo with the article about Shiff on the Man At Arms website.  The article was in the February 2024 issue (Vol. 46, #1).  I'll try to get a copy.  I would love to read the article.

The story about Shiff by Stan Holz in The Outdoor Gazette, referenced in my original post, was posted in its entirety on another forum.  I think it was The 24 Hour Campfire.  I'm not a member of that forum, but just found the article accidentally a couple of days ago.  I'll try to find it again.  Anyway, Mr. Holz indicated that the 1878 birth year was unequivocal, and it sounds as if you fellows have provided further confirmation.  I'm not surprised, but as a bit of a nostalgist, I'll confess I'm a little disappointed.  One disturbing detail, though, is that Ned Roberts evidently knew Shiff, and the photo and short biography Roberts published in the preface of his book looks like a tribute to a friend.  As previously noted, Roberts was born in 1866.  One would think he would recognize the difference between a 62-year-old man and one who was 85 (in 1940).  Roberts himself would have been about 74 at that time.  However, I've been around the block a time or two myself, and can testify that there are some "artful fakers" out there.

Regarding Shiff's death in August 1952, the best account I have seen was the one written by Major Smiley in the November 1952 issue of Muzzle Blasts.  If you are an NMLRA member, you have online access to digital copies of every issue that was ever printed.  Briefly, Shiff was found down and unresponsive in his shop by a deliveryman.  He was taken to a hospital, and I believe then transferred to another, larger facility, where he soon died.  Foul play was initially suspected, but nothing had been stolen from his home or shop, and in fact Shiff had a large roll of bills on his person, and more stuffed in a jar in his shop.  My take on it (opinion, not from documentation) is that he was an elderly man who either tripped or experienced a syncopal episode, fell, and suffered a traumatic brain injury.  The apparent impact with a skull fracture would suggest a likely subdural hematoma.  They had the technology to complete a craniotomy with evacuation of the hematoma back then, but it was probably too late.  I'll try to get a screenshot of the part of Major Smiley's article that deals with Shiff's death.

So, I'll grudgingly admit Shiff was likely a charlatan, although he was evidently an ethical and very successful businessman, an independent thinker, and a genuine original, living his life on his own terms.  Not to mention that lying as convincingly as he did requires a real talent..

I've never seen any mention of heirs to his extraordinary collection, which brings us back to that Hawken rifle.  Surely it's still out there, somewhere.  It would be great if it could be brought back into view.  Like it's former owner, it is a fascinating piece of work.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline OLUT

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2025, 05:38:10 PM »
The article that I previously allude to states that his guns were sold via a 47 page catalog by "The Shiff Associates" of Danvers, Mass  after his death in 18952


Offline OLUT

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2025, 06:47:53 PM »
More info. His old catalogs are interesting as they are a mix of political views and gun listings. Also is the cover from his estate sale






Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2025, 07:20:08 PM »
That’s some great information, OLUT!  Thanks!

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline moseswhite

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2025, 01:38:28 AM »
I saw the Hawken rifle about 45 years ago in the gun collection of Norman Sellinger in eastern Ohio and he also had a full stock small caliber s. Hawken rifle . They looked like twins other than one was a full stock and one a half stock . Norman told me that he had gotten them out of the Henry Ford collection. Norman had a collection of 23 St. Louis guns and he sold the collection to Norm Flayderman who sold them in one of his catalogues , At that time I was not convinced the two Hawkens were real . The barrel stamps were a lot smaller , as well as I remember . and they were both nipple and drum guns , possible but unlikely that both of them were , the trigger guards were I believe made of brass and the stock architecture seemed off I questioned their authenticity. I have never seen them since Norm Flayderman had them. I hope this helps you.

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2025, 02:16:05 AM »
Thank you, moseswhite.  Any information is good, and your comments were helpful.  I am a little unclear about the chain of ownership, whether Norman Sellinger or Shiff the Gunman first acquired the Hawken halfstock from the Ford collection, or if the rifle went from Shiff to Ford and then Sellinger.  In any event, the comments regarding the architecture and furniture of Mr. Sellinger’s purported Hawken rifles were interesting.  The atypical features of Shiff the Gunman’s Hawken were really the incentive for starting this thread.

Good grief… it’s starting to look as if Shiff and his Hawken were both fakes…

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline moseswhite

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2025, 06:51:05 AM »
Yes it went from Shiff the GUNMAN to the Ford Museum and then to Norm Sehlinger and then to Norm Flayderman and I don't know where from there ! a puzzle for sure !

Offline 5judge

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Re: "Shiff the Gunman's" Hawken
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2025, 02:18:40 PM »
This thread reminds me so very much of the last several Confederate veteran claimants. Most all proved to be frauds, the ten-year U.S. censuses being their greatest enemy. On Face Book are posted newspaper articles and the like featuring them in the 1940s and '50s which draw fawning responses from people who don't realize they are perpetuating both myth and stolen valor.