Leather for making shooting bags

[Scota4570]

I made a couple of bags.  Spent a lot of time too.  I made all of the buckles too.  They turned out great. 

I used veg tanned tooling leather as is recommended.  I use vinegar and iron harness dye.  My bags fell apart after a few years.  The leather lost all integrity. 

Is this likely a problem with the leather or the dye?

I am thinking  I want to make new bag.  Given the sad condition of my hands I do not want to waste my time again.  I was thinking of using modern chrome tanned leather this time. 

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Scot

[Robby]

I have made several of both types of leather. The Chrome tanned seems more prone to get that whitish mold, which is easily dealt with and doesn't seem to have any affect on the leather. I like the vegetable tanned leather and just treat it with pure neetsfoote oil and or saddle soap, leave it in the sun when I can, it takes on a nice natural color. Some treat it with Ritt dye or leather dyes made for that purpose and get a color to what they're looking for.
 Robby

[Jeff Murray]

I also use leather dye, and liquid mink oil to treat the leather.  A couple of my bags are over 40 years old.

[Ghillie]

Vinegar is acidic, normally 5% acetic acid.  The acid is probably leading to the leather going bad.

[Notchy Bob]

I’m sorry to hear of the deterioration of your pouches.  How frustrating!

I think the problem is not with the leather, but that the acid in the vinegaroon (vinegar and iron mixture) used for coloring the leather ate it up.  I’ve heard of this happening, and have been spooked (and advised) not to use vinegar on for that reason.  I still use Fiebing’s leather dye.

Vinegaroon reacts with the tannin in vegetable tanned leather to change the color of the leather itself.  The vinegaroon is a reagent, and not a dye.

Lots of people will tell you how to make vinegaroon, but very few mention neutralizing the acid after the coloration has been achieved.  I tried it on a sample piece, and rinsed the sample pretty thoroughly with clear water after the coloration was achieved.  The sample swatch seems to be intact, but it has only been a couple of years.  Maybe some of the professionals here can advise us.

I would stick with vegetable (bark) tanned leather, in any event.  Chrome tanned leathers can be corrosive to metallic objects over time.  Chrome tanned leathers ought to work for a pouch, but I just wouldn’t leave anything stored in it.  For a shot pouch, or “hunting bag,” I would use milled veg tan leather.  It is more supple than the regular veg tanned tooling leather.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

[T.C.Albert]

Yes. Veg tan leather seems to be best, especially if you are laying stitches with marking wheels etc… in fact tooling can only really be done with veg tans. Then again it may depend on the bag style you are making. Bark tan hides for primitive style bags, smoked brain tans for some others. Again, you have many traditional options.

That said, in the past decade or so I’ve found cheaper hides from some retailers are not good to try and use vinagaroon on. I also learned that the hard way too. These days I’ve even had issues with spirit dyes turning cheaper leathers brittle. Especially thin stuff.

I think true vat tanned oak stuff would hold up to vinegaroon. The combination has been used for ever, but iron/vinegar dyes conbined with questionable tannage and you can really have unanticipated issues. If you want to use iron/vinegar dyes, I’d suggest only using true old time vat oak tans like those you can buy from Herman Oak or maybe Wickett and Craig. But be warned, that stuff is very expensive. Then again so is custom bark tan and brain tan.

For a much more predictable result on even cheaper leathers, I recommend eco-Flo water based dyes these days. I don’t think you could get into too much trouble with those.
TC

[thecapgunkid]

Can you give us a couple of pics to show how and where they fell apart?

Inasmuch as leather would have preferred to remain on the cow, there might be more than one reason for your heartache and there are more than enough great craftsmen here to help you.

[Leatherbark]

I have made a couple of bags from heavy weight Linen fabric.  After the bags were finished, I saturated the Linen with melted beeswax and worked the fabric until it was pliable again.
Bob

[thecapgunkid]

Just for gits and shiggles, try this;

Get away from veg tan cowhide.
Go down to about a 4-5-6 ounce semi stiff oil tan.
Get your hands on some heavy canvas to be used as a liner.
Cut out your pieces and mate them with the canvas. spray glue will help.
If you are going to fold the bag inside out, skive ( taper) the edges about 3/4 inch back from the edge.  Do this on the flesh side of the leather rather than the flower ( smooth) side.
Drop the hole puncher.  Get your hands on a stitching awl, grind and polish it to an absurdly fine, slick  taper
Shorten your stitches in tighter holes than the punch makes.
When affixing the shoulder strap, run the seam lengthwise along the strap rather than across it if you are not doing that already. That'll put the seam parallel with the stress.
You can fold the edges or the flap and top edge of the front of the pouch and stitch them closed to protect the canvas.
Don't gop up the bag with a lot of oil or dressing.

I don't know how much of this you are already doing, but each step is a proven measure.
Good luck

Capgun

[Marcruger]

We go through this roundy-round every few years.  Vinegaroon is adding acid to leather, and there is no reliable way to know what it is going to do to the PH.  I have even heard folks saying to use a base on it to neutralize it.  Again, no way to know the result, and a good way to abuse the leather.

I use a THIN coat of neatsfoot oil on the leather before dye work, as it allows the dye to spread more evenly.   Let dissipate 24 hours.  I then work in a coat of thinned Fiebing's Pro Dye.  I let it sit for a day too.  Build up coats as needed to get color.  I then rub on another THIN coat of neatsfoot oil.  Let that sit 24 hours.  Add your finish.

With this method and black dye you can reproduce the look of vinegaroon without sabotaging your project.  Vinegaroon can also rot out the stitching too. 

One well known builder here was making fine looking bags, and asked why after two years the stitching all failed.  Yep.  Vinegaroon. 

I am pretty sure the OP's issue is vinegaroon.  That said, I will never again use imported leather.  There is some crappy stuff sold that will not take and hold dye or finish.  What a waste.  I use Wickett and Craig leather.  More costly, but worth it if you want your products to be good. 

God Bless,   Marc

[bigsmoke]

I totally agree with the CapGunKid, oil tanned leather is the best way to go.
In all the hundreds and hundreds of bags we produced over the years (probably thousands) we never had one returned due to a failure on anything, really.  It is a durable product that really does not need any sort of coloring.  It is a beautiful shade of brown and it wears well.  I have seen some of the earlier pouches that had been carried through the brush and brambles.  Sure, they showed the signs of heavy usage, but that just gave the leather some character.
The leather is flexible, it sews relatively easily and it looks great.
I believe we used a HH weight, or about 5 oz.
Without a turning post it is better to sew it right side out.  But the bag has a more finished look if it is sewn inside out, then turned.
If you source the leather from Tandy, I think they call it blacksmith sides.
John  (Bigsmoke)

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I agree with the vinegar use. The acid stays long after the wet has dried and continues to work. Vinegar is a much stronger acid than most people think. Example: I was tired of paying $3.00 ea. for 1 steel screw or bolt for gun building. So, now I buy zinc plated steel slotted screws and bolts in bulk. I put them in an old pickle jar with vinegar for 3 or 4 days. The vinegar eats the zinc right off the steel. Rinse well, dry, and oil for storage. The result is I have 100 screws or 25-50 unplaited bolts for only a few dollars.
Back to the bags. I personally buy leather scraps by the pound and make my possibles bags from the scraps. That's great leather for a decent price. Just throwing that out there.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have heard of this happening, but have never had it happen.  I use Vegtan. 

Cory Joe